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Post by LeftyMeister on Feb 17, 2024 8:46:31 GMT -5
I realize it was a different time and those cats didn't have the gear of today, but his tone often sounds...ummm...anemic to me. I also realize this is a preference thing. But when I hear tunes like Rock and Roll, it would've had a lot more punch with a beefier tone, ala Mississippi Queen (which came out a year earlier), versus the upper midrange nasally tone that he seemed to often prefer. Whole Lotta Love is another that could've benefited from a beefier tone. Maybe it's the heavy processing and hall effect on that song. Good Times Bad Times, Living Lovin' Made, and Ramble On are others.
Not every song was that way. Heartbreaker and Immigrant Song have great tone. Black Dog and Mody Dick are others.
FWIW, his lead tone was usually spot on, which may be part of the issue. Did he EQ for the lead tone and just settle for the rhythm tone?
I'm not slagging on Jimmy. He was a pioneer of heavy metal and a studio master. It's just that some songs leave me wanting for more tonally.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 17, 2024 9:11:57 GMT -5
I think their stuff, like other classic rock and roll, is so ingrained in my head from a time before I had a more discerning ear that I don't give it much thought. It sounds "right" and as expected. What I have experienced listening to older music is awareness of pitch issues. I think that comes from working with pitch correction in my own home recording endeavors. I've trained myself to identify wonky vocal pitch and guitar tuning issues. In a way I wish I could "unhear" it, lol. I suppose the same thing happens when one works diligently on their own tone. I've always felt that I have bad ear for guitar tone and if I ever nailed one I did it by accident, lol.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 17, 2024 9:49:43 GMT -5
He sometimes (often?) used some eclectic amps. I suspect that was much of it. I’ve thought about it, over the years, and I don’t chase those tones. But they are ingrained as the unique signatures of those songs.
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Post by LeftyMeister on Feb 17, 2024 11:24:24 GMT -5
That’s a good point about chasing those tones. I would imagine very few guitarists do.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 17, 2024 11:45:21 GMT -5
I loved Page's acoustic stuff but his electric work left me kind of ho hum. The songwriting was excellent though. I was impressed with the It Might Get Loud film where he played Whole Lotta Love and it had THAT sound. The same for when he played Kashmir. It wasn't the tone as much as it was the perfect execution it took to get that exact feel across.
I wasn't a big Zepplin fan back in the day but have come to like a lot of their stuff later in life. My biggest complaint was Robert Plant's voice. He had mojo in spades but he was always kind of whiney to me. I'm very sensitive to tuning issues and he never seemed to be all that concerned with hitting a lot of the notes. That bugged me and kind of still does. However, there are songs where he slayed it.
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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 17, 2024 23:02:52 GMT -5
Never really really a zep fan. Page puts me off with tone and some sloppy playing he let by. But some great songs and some good parts.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 18, 2024 13:56:26 GMT -5
Page/Zep is in a category of music that I appreciate, do not feel is over-rated, but has little appeal to me. Something about it just makes me feel odd... like it is too drawn out and hypnotic or something.
I hadn't really thought much about his tone, but I agree. It just sounds flat... like a generic tone you'd find on an early 2000s modeling amp or multi-effects board. Well balanced for a lead tone, but kinda exaggerated and not much depth. More utilitarian than inspiring.
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Post by reverendrob on Feb 21, 2024 20:06:48 GMT -5
Not something I ever wanted to emulate or gave a crap about.
It was honestly super generic rock stuff.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Feb 22, 2024 9:51:56 GMT -5
Never really really a zep fan. Page puts me off with tone and some sloppy playing he let by. But some great songs and some good parts. This. I can enjoy Zep, but it's not something I go out of my way to listen to. I always thought Page sounded like he was playing on the hair edge of what he was capable...kinda the guitar equivalent of a singer on the edge of their range. Yet another "guitar god" that I never really got. Zep had some great songs that I really enjoy (Over the Hills and Far away, for example, which is the only Zep song I bothered to learn to play), but I just never saw Page as the amazing guitar player that many do.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 22, 2024 10:03:05 GMT -5
Zep is very much a time & place thing for me. They were a big part of the soundtrack of my youth. As with many other things in this category, I don’t revisit.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 22, 2024 15:43:43 GMT -5
Never really really a zep fan. Page puts me off with tone and some sloppy playing he let by. But some great songs and some good parts. This. I can enjoy Zep, but it's not something I go out of my way to listen to. I always thought Page sounded like he was playing on the hair edge of what he was capable...kinda the guitar equivalent of a singer on the edge of their range. Then Robert Plant was MADE for that band.
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Post by LeftyMeister on Feb 22, 2024 17:07:11 GMT -5
It just sounds flat... like a generic tone you'd find on an early 2000s modeling amp or multi-effects board. Wow! That absolutely nails what I hear, but I couldn't come up with an apt comparison.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 22, 2024 17:12:33 GMT -5
I arrived at Zep with Zep IV then worked backwards. I honestly couldn't get into anything after.
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chucksmi
Wholenote
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
Age: I saw Jerry Live
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Post by chucksmi on Feb 22, 2024 18:41:56 GMT -5
I wonder if sometimes people confuse recorded playback sound with what was going on in the studio. Live, Page was HUGE sounding live and that was really hard to capture back then. Remember, on a recording you only hear what the people who mixed and mastered it wanted it to sound like.
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Post by reverendrob on Feb 22, 2024 19:04:16 GMT -5
I wonder if sometimes people confuse recorded playback sound with what was going on in the studio. Live, Page was HUGE sounding live and that was really hard to capture back then. Remember, on a recording you only hear what the people who mixed and mastered it wanted it to sound like. I'm going by the studio sound. Given how huge JPJ sounds and Bonham sounds etc...it's strange how...bad he does. Love, The Guy Who USes a Pultec EQP clone as a guitar preamp.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 23, 2024 9:12:11 GMT -5
I wonder if sometimes people confuse recorded playback sound with what was going on in the studio. Live, Page was HUGE sounding live and that was really hard to capture back then. Remember, on a recording you only hear what the people who mixed and mastered it wanted it to sound like. It's not necessarily what they WANTED it to sound like, but what they were able to make it sound like and fit in with everything else with the technology of the day. Bonham and Jones' sounds WERE huge but everything can't sound huge in a mix or it all turns to mush but I agree it could have sounded better. Who am I to say so. It's not like they didn't have successful results. At the end of the day, that's what matters.
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Post by Mike the marksman on Feb 23, 2024 9:50:03 GMT -5
I always thought Jimmy's guitar sounded "sleazy", for lack of a better description. It was a whole vibe and character of it's own.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 23, 2024 10:00:41 GMT -5
IIRC he recorded with what was available. He toured with Marshall stacks.
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Post by LVF on Feb 23, 2024 11:11:55 GMT -5
I'd be willing to bet that back when their songs and 'sounds' where new, not a thought was made about Page's tonality. To me it was fresh and innovative and...IT ROCKED!!
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 23, 2024 11:18:22 GMT -5
I wonder if sometimes people confuse recorded playback sound with what was going on in the studio. Live, Page was HUGE sounding live and that was really hard to capture back then. Remember, on a recording you only hear what the people who mixed and mastered it wanted it to sound like. It's not necessarily what they WANTED it to sound like, but what they were able to make it sound like and fit in with everything else with the technology of the day. Bonham and Jones' sounds WERE huge but everything can't sound huge in a mix or it all turns to mush but I agree it could have sounded better. Who am I to say so. It's not like they didn't have successful results. At the end of the day, that's what matters. Well, I'd argue his tone is "good" from a utilitarian sense. He seemed to fit in the mix okay, his solos jumped out as they should, it suited the genre very well, and that is something a lot of newer guitarists struggle with. Too many people craft their dream tone in isolation of a mix or a band, and then it doesn't work well when put to use. I don't listen to a lot of Zep, but I don't think Page could ever be accused of cork sniffing tone in a bedroom and having something unusable in the studio or on stage. Tone is always a mix of gear and technique, and never just one. Maybe it was his pick attack that just made everything a bit flat? In the same way Jeff Beck had that sort of violin sweetness with everything he did, some players have a bit of that flatness. Again, I don't listen to enough Page, but that might just be part of his technique? I've had to fight that at various points of my guitar playing life. Some of it came from having an anemic setup and intuitively playing harder to try to cut through instead of letting the amp work. I was listening to a Steve Vai interview a little while ago (youtube channel of a guy named Chanan Hanspal... highly recommend), and he was remembering his early days when Zappa told him his tone sounded like an electric ham sandwich. Young Steve was confused because he felt like he was doing everything right... he had the Strat, he had the Marshall... and the viewer/listener can fill in the blanks and realize that Vai's technique is just SO fluid/legato/light that there just wasn't much there. His tone would be better when he had more drive behind it. Most people playing Vai's rig would sound horribly abrasive, but that is what Vai needs to not sound like the electric ham sandwich, and it works VERY well for him. I've played many JEMs and the ebony board/DiMarzio combo makes the guitar sound like the least legato thing in the world, and that is just through a small amp. But, it is what works for him.
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Post by HenryJ on Feb 23, 2024 12:52:13 GMT -5
I loved Page's acoustic stuff but his electric work left me kind of ho hum. The songwriting was excellent though. I was impressed with the It Might Get Loud film where he played Whole Lotta Love and it had THAT sound. The same for when he played Kashmir. It wasn't the tone as much as it was the perfect execution it took to get that exact feel across. I wasn't a big Zepplin fan back in the day but have come to like a lot of their stuff later in life. My biggest complaint was Robert Plant's voice. He had mojo in spades but he was always kind of whiney to me. I'm very sensitive to tuning issues and he never seemed to be all that concerned with hitting a lot of the notes. That bugged me and kind of still does. However, there are songs where he slayed it. I thought it was just me who wasn't much of a fan of the electric stuff, but loved the acoustic material. I even like the acoustic stuff that has electric guitars on it, like "Stairway to Heaven." Back when tangible media were a thing, I thought that Zep's record company should have released an album of acoustic material from over their career. Just put it in one album. Maybe I should look for Page and Plant on MTV Unplugged.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 23, 2024 14:09:38 GMT -5
I'd be willing to bet that back when their songs and 'sounds' where new, not a thought was made about Page's tonality. I can practically guarantee you that his tonality was a concern for the guy(s) engineering the recordings. It would have had to fit in with everything else or they would have made changes to accommodate it, and probably did along the way. We all know the old adage, "$--t in, $--t out." There is nowhere that is more relevant than in recording production and engineering. I'll be the first to admit that his tone wasn't stellar but it did the job and got the point across. In the end it's all about the material first and foremost. Nobody had a worse guitar sound than John Lennon and look what he achieved.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 23, 2024 14:14:37 GMT -5
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chucksmi
Wholenote
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
Age: I saw Jerry Live
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Post by chucksmi on Feb 23, 2024 16:56:47 GMT -5
So here's the deal if you haven't recorded live-mic in the studio a lot. Others here can attest- Whenever you get into the studio the engineer WILL ALWAYS, EVERY DANGED TIME ask you to drop your mids and turn up the treble. It's like, recording engineer 101. They want separation of the instruments, and give you the old "we'll fix it in post" BS. That's EXACTLY what I hear on a lot a Zep. Thankfully today we play mostly direct in and have so many channels it's not the issue it was back on a Neve.
In concert films, notice how Page's burst is shaking the room like an earthquake. That never made it onto the records.
That burst had the juice for days. Trust us old timers that heard it live.
Chuck
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Post by windmill on Feb 23, 2024 20:45:48 GMT -5
Trying to remember back at the time the records came out. Page was an experienced session player and it was always implied in the reporting he knew the sound he wanted to get on the records. He had a "secret" amp for recording. It was revealed later to be a a small Magnatone or Supro combo. Most the first 3 or 4 albums were done with a telecaster through that amp. Obviously he may have used other gear as well.
Of course the years habe gone by and the record player I listened to those early albums has long been replaced by better gear, and the remixing and remastering of the original recordings has changed the emphasis of what we hear at any one point.
At the time we just thought it was fantastic.
HTH ☺
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Post by LeftyMeister on Feb 23, 2024 22:01:57 GMT -5
It's not necessarily what they WANTED it to sound like, but what they were able to make it sound like and fit in with everything else with the technology of the day. I wonder if sometimes people confuse recorded playback sound with what was going on in the studio. Live, Page was HUGE sounding live and that was really hard to capture back then. As stated in the OP, Mississippi Queen came out in 1970 and Leslie West sounded huuuuuge!
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Post by ninworks on Feb 24, 2024 5:02:21 GMT -5
So here's the deal if you haven't recorded live-mic in the studio a lot. Others here can attest- Whenever you get into the studio the engineer WILL ALWAYS, EVERY DANGED TIME ask you to drop your mids and turn up the treble. I have done hundreds of recording sessions as both a guitarist and an engineer and I have never once had an engineer say that to me nor have I said it to someone else. Have I had to adjust my sound to fit in with the track? Absolutely, but that's just a part of the process that I do anyway.
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Post by reverendrob on Feb 24, 2024 5:05:37 GMT -5
So here's the deal if you haven't recorded live-mic in the studio a lot. Others here can attest- Whenever you get into the studio the engineer WILL ALWAYS, EVERY DANGED TIME ask you to drop your mids and turn up the treble. I have done hundreds of recording sessions as both a guitarist and an engineer and I have never once had an engineer say that to me nor have I said it to someone else. Same, engineer just sticks the mic(s) down and leaves the production to the person cutting the check or the producer IME.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 24, 2024 5:15:40 GMT -5
It's the engineer's job to get the sound the artist is looking for. If the sound doesn't work for them then they are selecting the wrong microphones or the placement is wrong. Sometimes they might suggest using a different guitar or amp but probably 95% of the time, or more, they can tell me what they're looking for and I'll hear for myself when something needs changing. I might suggest that the engineer use a different mic, but if the engineer is any good they'll realize it and do it automatically without any suggestions.
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Post by reverendrob on Feb 24, 2024 5:23:08 GMT -5
It's the engineer's job to get the sound the artist is looking for. If the sound doesn't work for them then they are selecting the wrong microphones or the placement is wrong. Sometimes they might suggest using a different guitar or amp but probably 95% of the time, or more, they can tell me what they're looking for and I'll hear for myself when something needs changing. I might suggest that the engineer use a different mic, but if the engineer is any good they'll realize it and do it automatically without any suggestions. Yea, in my case unless they've got some fancy toys I haven't gotten to play with (and at this point, I don't record anywhere but home unless a meteor strikes)..I know what mics I want. And it ain't a 57. HATE, hate, hate my sound with a 57.
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