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Post by Ben Tobith on Jan 3, 2020 14:56:39 GMT -5
Hi all, I recently acquired a brand new 2017 Fender American Elite Telecaster Thinline (champagne metallic). I play through an Orange Rocker 15 combo. I noticed with the Tele that there's a loud, high-pitched buzz whenever I'm not touching the strings or anything metal on the guitar or amplifier. Seems like a grounding issue, perhaps, but I'm not an expert. I also wasn't sure if it could've been power-related, since the noise is also there with my SG Standard, but just barely audible (perhaps due to the Hum-buckers, although I'd expect "Noiseless" pickups in the Fender to behave similarly?). Things I've done to troubleshoot or at least isolate areas of potential concern: - Replaced all tubes in amplifier (was planning to do this anyway)
- Tried a different power cord for the amplifier
- Plugged the amp into a Furman power conditioner
- Plugged the amp in through a Hum-X (both into power conditioner and direct into outlet on wall)
- Tried different outlets throughout the house
- Checked wires inside Tele (looked closely at bridge ground, pickups, under pickguard, etc.
- Tried different instrument leads/cables
- Tried with/without pedals, with/without FX loop in use, direct into amp, different power output modes on amp, etc.
I'm a bit at a loss as to what I can try next... Maybe I'm just being OCD, but the noise is very annoying and noticeable, especially when playing quiet, clean riffs. The buzz pops in as soon as I take my hands off of metal.
I was planning to add some shielding tape/foil to the cavities of the Tele and under the pickguard, but I'm not sure that will help.
Any ideas?
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 3, 2020 15:39:21 GMT -5
Howdy Ben
The fact that there's a buzz when you're not touching the strings and it goes away when you grab the neck of the guitar means everything is working as it should. The strings are grounded through the bridge plate and the capacitance of the human body (when touching the strings, bridge, control plate, etc.) acts like low-pass filter to block noise. If the problem was a noise increase when touching the strings, that would signal a problem with the circuit. Shielding *may* help reduce the noise. If you shield the pickup routs and control cavity, be sure to add shielding inside the drilled bore to the output jack too.
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Post by Ben Tobith on Jan 3, 2020 15:41:47 GMT -5
Howdy Ben The fact that there's a buzz when you're not touching the strings and it goes away when you grab the neck of the guitar means everything is working as it should. The strings are grounded through the bridge plate and the capacitance of the human body (when touching the strings, bridge, control plate, etc.) acts like low-pass filter to block noise. If the problem was a noise increase when touching the strings, that would signal a problem with the circuit. Shielding *may* help reduce the noise. If you shield the pickup routs and control cavity, be sure to add shielding inside the drilled bore to the output jack too. Thank you for the response! I ordered some shielding foil/tape which should arrive tomorrow. I'll definitely make sure to get the output jack area when I'm working on it. Since it seems the guitar itself should be okay, any other ideas on remedies or troubleshooting?
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 3, 2020 16:03:11 GMT -5
Some environments are just simply noisy.
Fender single coil pickups, even so-called noiseless versions, sometimes do make unwanted noise. The fact that it goes away when playing (fingers on the strings) is good! One thing you can do is keep edge of the palm of your picking hand against the bridge plate. If you are a right-hand muter, this is a simple fix because it's already habit for you. When not playing, get into the habit of sliding the palm on the volume knob to kill all signal to the amp. Playing single-coil pickups sometimes requires these sorts of techniques.
You might want to pop out the amp chassis and look in the cabinet to ensure there are no "open" (unshielded) areas around the chassis, e.g., inside the top panel of the amp cabinet. If there is, use aluminum sheet or copper tape (staple it down; don't rely on just the adhesive) and make sure it is all in continuity with ground when the chassis is reinstalled.
IMPORTANT: If you are not familiar with amp guts and discharging filter caps, do not open it up because there can be residual voltage even in an unplugged amp that can kill you to death.
Same goes for the shielding tape in your guitar. When done installing the copper tape, test across all the shielding in multiple locations with your meter to ensure you have continuity throughout. There are copper tapes on the market that claim to have conductive adhesive, but sometimes that is not the case. I always add a dot of solder between any two pieces of copper tape when shielding a guitar. And do not be concerned with ground loops or 'star grounding' in your guitar. The circuit is passive and the voltages and currents are too low for differential ground potential to occur.
Amps, however, are different due to higher voltages/differing voltages/variable ground potential and must be star grounded to keep noise at a minimum.
Have you tried that guitar through different amps to see if it's quieter? Keep in mind that different amps have different gain characteristics, and gainy amps will usually be noisier strictly due to how they operate.
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Post by Ben Tobith on Jan 3, 2020 16:16:32 GMT -5
Some environments are just simply noisy. Fender single coil pickups, even so-called noiseless versions, sometimes do make unwanted noise. The fact that it goes away when playing (fingers on the strings) is good! One thing you can do is keep edge of the palm of your picking hand against the bridge plate. If you are a right-hand muter, this is a simple fix because it's already habit for you. When not playing, get into the habit of sliding the palm on the volume knob to kill all signal to the amp. Playing single-coil pickups sometimes requires these sorts of techniques. You might want to pop out the amp chassis and look in the cabinet to ensure there are no "open" (unshielded) areas around the chassis, e.g., inside the top panel of the amp cabinet. If there is, use aluminum sheet or copper tape (staple it down; don't rely on just the adhesive) and make sure it is all in continuity with ground when the chassis is reinstalled. IMPORTANT: If you are not familiar with amp guts and discharging filter caps, do not open it up because there can be residual voltage even in an unplugged amp that can kill you to death. Same goes for the shielding tape in your guitar. When done installing the copper tape, test across all the shielding in multiple locations with your meter to ensure you have continuity throughout. There are copper tapes on the market that claim to have conductive adhesive, but sometimes that is not the case. I always add a dot of solder between any two pieces of copper tape when shielding a guitar. And do not be concerned with ground loops or 'star grounding' in your guitar. The circuit is passive and the voltages and currents are too low for differential ground potential to occur. Amps, however, are different due to higher voltages/differing voltages/variable ground potential and must be star grounded to keep noise at a minimum. Have you tried that guitar through different amps to see if it's quieter? Keep in mind that different amps have different gain characteristics, and gainy amps will usually be noisier strictly due to how they operate. I don't have another amp, but I was planning to try a battery-powered mini amp tomorrow to see if it's in fact a ground-related issue or if the amp is at all involved in the cause.
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 7, 2020 10:48:39 GMT -5
How do you like that Orange rocker?
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Wrnchbndr
Wholenote
Posts: 353
Formerly Known As: WRNCHBNDR
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Post by Wrnchbndr on Jan 7, 2020 11:41:33 GMT -5
I have found that this problem is typically an indicator that the ground to the bridge plate is not making good contact. Take a length of insulated wire with the ends stripped, hold the wire by the insulation, and touch both the bridge plate and the nut on the output jack with the ends of the wire. If the hum goes away, you have a problem with the bridgeplate ground. Sometimes Fender attaches the ground to the bridge via a wire that goes on one of the bridge pickup height adjustment screws. This is not a good way to attach a ground.
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Post by Ben Tobith on Jan 7, 2020 14:40:17 GMT -5
How do you like that Orange rocker? I so wish it were made in England instead of China, but it has a very warm clean sound that breaks almost immediately on 0.5 and 1 watts, but has some nice headroom at 7 and 15 watts. The "Dirty" channel spans everything from mild overdrive or classic blues/rock tone to full-on heavy metal. Very versatile if some flavor of "rock" is your thing. It also has a tube buffered FX Loop which seems a premium at this price point.
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Post by Ben Tobith on Jan 7, 2020 14:44:51 GMT -5
I have found that this problem is typically an indicator that the ground to the bridge plate is not making good contact. Take a length of insulated wire with the ends stripped, hold the wire by the insulation, and touch both the bridge plate and the nut on the output jack with the ends of the wire. If the hum goes away, you have a problem with the bridgeplate ground. Sometimes Fender attaches the ground to the bridge via a wire that goes on one of the bridge pickup height adjustment screws. This is not a good way to attach a ground. To clarify, the bridge pickup on this model is separate from the bridge assembly (vintage brass 3-saddle). On the bridge pickup, there's a black ground wire attached to the bridge pickup height adjustment screw, as you noted. Not sure what would work better here that isn't crazy? For the bridge itself, there's an exposed, "frayed" set of wires (ground) that rests underneath the bridge metal.
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Post by Ben Tobith on Jan 7, 2020 14:47:47 GMT -5
As a bit of an update, I took the guitar apart and checked all of the grounds and wires and everything seemed kosher. I also took the time to fully shield the pickup cavities, around the tone controls, and extra shielding on the pick guard. It sounds a bit quieter, but the hum is still there when I'm not touching metal on the guitar or amp.
I also checked the ground of the outlets I'm using and they're perfectly fine.
I think it may be a combo of lots of EFI/interference in our home plus some wiring that Fender could've done a better job on (more shielded wire? more grounds?), but it's acceptable at this point. The guitar plays and sounds so good otherwise. I also have an E-H Hum Debugger I'll run first in my chain of effects off my guitar to see if that reduces it a bit, but I'm good with it now.
I just wish Fender put the same effort into this that Gibson does (or at least did for 2011-era models). Especially since the price point of the American Elite/Ultra is much higher than an SG Standard...
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 7, 2020 16:14:48 GMT -5
Thanks, Ben
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Post by ScottB on Jan 7, 2020 16:32:18 GMT -5
I had an unexplained noise problem at a gig and it turned out to be caused by my cellphone in my pocket.
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Post by LTB on Jan 8, 2020 4:05:43 GMT -5
As a bit of an update, I took the guitar apart and checked all of the grounds and wires and everything seemed kosher. I also took the time to fully shield the pickup cavities, around the tone controls, and extra shielding on the pick guard. It sounds a bit quieter, but the hum is still there when I'm not touching metal on the guitar or amp. I also checked the ground of the outlets I'm using and they're perfectly fine. I think it may be a combo of lots of EFI/interference in our home plus some wiring that Fender could've done a better job on (more shielded wire? more grounds?), but it's acceptable at this point. The guitar plays and sounds so good otherwise. I also have an E-H Hum Debugger I'll run first in my chain of effects off my guitar to see if that reduces it a bit, but I'm good with it now. I just wish Fender put the same effort into this that Gibson does (or at least did for 2011-era models). Especially since the price point of the American Elite/Ultra is much higher than an SG Standard... Have you tried it at a different location other than your house?
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