gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Jan 20, 2020 1:29:37 GMT -5
Over the years I've used a multimeter to test the voltage of factory wall warts and compared the actual voltage vs. the stated voltage. The result was that only Boss wall warts did what they said ! On almost any other factory wall wart, the voltages looked like : 9v stated, 11-13 actual voltage @ 300 - 500ma...or 12 volt stated, 13 -16 actual volts @ 300 - 500ma. My question for the electrobrain trust is : does it "hurt" a gismo to give it less voltage ? Why or why not ? (currently I have a 10.5v battery feeding a stated 12v device and the device works, but not optimally. Will this damage the device ? Uh, assume the input voltage remains stable...which it isn't actually...it could decline to 9v eventually...at which I already know the device does not work) And of course I have to pose the next question, why does the factory "rate" a device at 9v when the factory wall wart puts out 13v ? Is this a form of "built in obsolescence" ? A bonus question is : is there a hidden relationship between the current flow and voltage for wall wart design that creates this strangeness ? Tests with adjustable voltage wall warts often occur where when the voltage is set to the stated 9v or 12v on the adjustable wall wart, and it actually tests as the adjustable wall wart is set, surprise, surprise, the powered device doesn't work...UNTIL...the voltage is boosted another couple of steps or so. WTH ? I know its a silly mistake to use logic in this universe, but why state a voltage if that's not the voltage that works for a device ? Wait. Maybe it's like a speed sign....
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Post by HenryJ on Jan 20, 2020 7:11:01 GMT -5
My understanding is that multi-testers don't test under a load (resistance), so they often read somewhat high. When a piece of equipment has resistance, the voltage will drop to the stated amount.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 20, 2020 12:42:06 GMT -5
Generally, under-voltage conditions will do no damage to electronics.
Where it can cause damage is devices that are fan-cooled because the fan doesn't spin fast enough to properly ventilate the jellybeans in the circuit.
With effects pedals and the like, under-voltage conditions will make the device behave oddly or not operate at all.
You're probably aware of the trend that started about 20 years ago where certain players claimed they got better tone from a stompbox with a partially-drained battery. Power supply makers jumped on the bandwagon [har!] and offered units with 'simulated battery sag' and other dopey names to re-create the springtime-fresh creamy endless sustain of your favorite axe slinger. I've tried it with a bench power supply and it does affect how distortions and overdrives chop up the sine wave. Whether it's better or not depends on your ears and your biases.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 1:12:37 GMT -5
It depends on the circuit. A lot of small signal analog circuits can work within a range of voltages, which sometimes (depending on how the transistor is biased) can do pleasing things (like the voltage drop in a nearly drained carbon battery). Other times not so much. And sometimes there’s that smell of a fried component that serves notice your pedal is toast or in the process of toasting (literally).
Digital stuff is usually pretty picky with supply voltages. Some devices have a voltage regulator to mitigate slight variations. Some don’t and rely on you, the proud owner, to be extra careful.
Some very unfunny things can happen if you exceed the current draw that the supply can provide too. Don’t do that.
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Jan 21, 2020 22:35:24 GMT -5
Not exceed the current draw ? Aww...what's the fun of that ?
So how does one find out the real current draw of a pedal ?
I have a multimeter with two pins, and a small barrel connector at the end of a wall wart.
This does not compute.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2020 17:28:14 GMT -5
Unlike voltage, resistance, etc., that are measured in parallel, current is measured inline - you close the circuit with the meter in series. If you need some help there’s some good online tutorials at places like allaboutcircuits.com. To do a pedal you’d need to put something inline between your power supply and the pedal that will let you put the meter in the circuit. Not hard by any means, but hard to describe.
ORRRR...
You could do a search online for the current draw of your pedal. I’ve seen lists here and there. Chances are good someone else has already wondered and recorded a measurement. It will be listed as milliamps (mA). Some are really low where a battery lasts ages. Others draw higher numbers - I had a delay pedal that would use up a fresh 9 volt battery in the course of a 2 hour rehearsal. Some pedals draw enough that the manufacturer doesn’t even bother with a battery option and you need a wall wart or the like.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 26, 2020 8:29:47 GMT -5
Current draw measurements are easy if you make some basic patch cables and use a clamp meter. You need to separate the power supply conductors and take a measurement from one of the conductors. An interesting aside is the way GFCIs (called RCDs in the UK) cut power: they have a sense coil on the conductors, but instead of measuring the current, they simply compare the current of the hot and the neutral conductors. When the current in both conductors is equal, all is good. If there's a short to ground or other fault down the line, the GFCI senses the current disparity (usually they trip in the 10 microvolts range) and it opens the hot side of the circuit. This prevents shocks. The simplest way to measure current is with a clamp meter or a clamp probe that plugs into a meter that can measure DC amperes. Many circuits draw current differently depending upon whether they are idling or under load, so it's good practice to take readings in both conditions. I have a small handheld clamp meter made by Uni-T model 210E that was inexpensive and accurately measures down to microvolts AC or DC. Pretty much all pedals these days have a label on the bottom that shows power jack polarity, voltage required, and current draw, like this:
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gbfun
Wholenote
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Post by gbfun on Jan 26, 2020 21:45:44 GMT -5
Ooh Ooh....I need a PTB-1 !! Maybe a dozen....
I need a clampanator too !
Are they both made in Peegoostan ? I got my $2Us right here on Paysometimes.
Yeaz, I can still read the labels with the appropriate reading glasses...but.
Some gizmotrons do not have labels or refuse to follow the one they have !
Bloody rude of them I think.
And I thought of you Peegoo, with your clever little graphics, while I was practicing along with the Doobie Bros...a much finer band than I thought !
Well, apparently I got a contact high from their name because I looked down at my long blonde Strat neck and had a vision.
A vision you say ?
Yes, a vision while playing along with the Doobie Bros.
Try and keep up here.
The vision was that I could be playing the long tan neck of a Giraffe, with the Strat as the body.
And I did that without any drugs !
But wouldn't that be a better symbol(or in your case, guitar) for the Giraffe crowd ?
And, of course, I thought you could whip something like that out.
Why ? I don't know.
Doobie Bros.
Contact high !
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Post by LTB on Jan 30, 2020 7:36:41 GMT -5
I have a small handheld clamp meter made by Uni-T model 210E that was inexpensive and accurately measures down to microvolts AC or DC. Pretty much all pedals these days have a label on the bottom that shows power jack polarity, voltage required, and current draw, like this: Where did you get your Uni-T 210E meter? I find them on Amazon but as with a few other things I have checked out on Amazon there seems to be a few folks claiming they are getting stuff that appears to have been used before. I know you have a small percentage of failures with most anything you buy but to read about "stuff received that has evidence of having been used before" scares me
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 30, 2020 9:20:31 GMT -5
I picked up the little Uni-T clamp meter about four years ago from a US vendor on fleabay.
The thing about these electronic devices is they are dead simple to counterfeit, and oftentimes the ones that appear to be a real deal really aren't. Fluke is often a crapshoot these days unless you buy from a known-name distributor such as Granger. And now that they're made in China, the quality of this once *worshipped* brand has steadily decreased over the last ten years or so.
Another thing that occurs with these kinds of small electronics is the 2%-3% that are factory crib deaths: instead of repairing or throwing them into the trash, it's less of a loss when the factory sells the dead ones to a vendor that slaps together working units from cannibalized parts. That's probably what's happening with some of the Amazon/Ali Express/BangGood vendors and why the units appear to be used.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 30, 2020 9:48:24 GMT -5
"Ooh Ooh....I need a PTB-1 !! Maybe a dozen." gbfun, the Talent Booster pedal works fine, but I usually recommend the pGOO BS-3 Blame Shifter over the TB-1 because it has more features:
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Post by modbus on Jan 30, 2020 12:44:55 GMT -5
If I every got a Talent Booster Pedal it would require way, waaay more than 100mA. The nuclear power plant would have to fire up the auxiliary reactor whenever I'd have it plugged in.
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gbfun
Wholenote
I eat cookies to provide you with the best possible experience.
Posts: 463
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Post by gbfun on Jan 31, 2020 0:03:45 GMT -5
Dang ! I need a BS-3 too ! You have all the good stuff Peegoo.
I have to make do with Dream On Distortion, and Chorus for Losers.
As for my latest ebay debacle, it seems to support the mixing and matching of parts in electronics.
I bought a Mooer PE100 and the selector knob was inaccurate and slow, the status light would blink off and on randomly, and worse, in acoustic mode, there was an obvious subtone that sort of breathed like a bad compressor, making it unusable.
And since I bought it over the holidays with lots of stuff, I didn't get around to testing it until late so I thought I was out the money.
And I would have been, but I looked inside and this supposedly "new" device had a circuit board stamp from 2016 !
I was expecting no less than 2018 or 2019 so I went back to the seller and gave him a picture.
He contacted his supplier or the factory and they told him that the circuit board was a Research and Development version and was not the production board !
Thankfully, my seller was nice enough to refund my money.
But one wonders just how a clearly flawed R and D board managed to get where I found it.
There were very fine lines in the plastic under the selector knob so I suspect someone did a sneaky substitution.
Or it could have been an old demo.
Hard to say.
Unfortunately, looking under the hood is frowned upon and that usually ends any chance of a refund.
So it's just best to send things back if it doesn't work.
But this time, I looked, and if I hadn't, I'd have another $50 paperweight.
Got lucky with an honest seller !
This time. But yes, it seems buying electronics is getting riskier.
I've seen one fake Les Paul, and 3 fake Strats in our hapless local pawnshop too.
And not so long ago they stopped $900,000 in fake dollar bills on the Canadian border.
And everyone knows about fake websi….umm.
Later.
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gbfun
Wholenote
I eat cookies to provide you with the best possible experience.
Posts: 463
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Post by gbfun on Jan 31, 2020 0:42:05 GMT -5
Oh, and on the my original topic question.
Given a device rated at 12v.
Given two batteries(A and B) that can provide regulated 12v at 1amp, or regulated 9v at 2amps.
And another battery(C) starts at 12.6v and drops to 9v as it discharges, with a 5-6 amp max.
Guess what happens.
Device does not work with Battery A at 9v. Device does work with Battery A at 12v/1amp....up to 25% or so. Device does work with Battery A and B together at 12v/2amp...up to 40%. Device does work with Battery C at 12v down to 10v/6amp...up to 70%. Device does work with Battery A and B together at 9v regulated/4amp...up to 70% !
Moral to that story is "at or under rated voltage" isn't as important as current power !
But what happens when Battery A or B runs out of power FIRST ?
I think it instantly starves the Device and it stops working, so the time of service is limited to the first battery to go.
Then it's better to use battery C for longer life.
Apparently this is true. Plus it's simpler. And cheaper.
And though it's not a regulated 12v battery, I held my nose and ordered another.
Because my testing shows that it's not the voltage so much as the current that determines the result.
Who knew ?
I'm having a hard time getting over several pictures of smoking and melted batteries though.
Hope mine is real and not fake...and...it has 2020 circuit boards !
Geez.
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Post by LTB on Jan 31, 2020 16:54:36 GMT -5
"Ooh Ooh....I need a PTB-1 !! Maybe a dozen." gbfun, the Talent Booster pedal works fine, but I usually recommend the pGOO BS-3 Blame Shifter over the TB-1 because it has more features: Peegoo, I love your sense of humor, but your talent leaves me more in awe! How on earth do you do these? What do you use? BTW: How much are the TB-1 and BS-3. I could probably benefit from both LOL (BS-3 leaves another phrase in mind )
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 31, 2020 17:59:54 GMT -5
LoveThatBass, I grab a pic off the web and use MS Paint to destroy it. MS Paint is a really basic graphics manipulation package but it's good enough. It takes about a minute to turn something legit into something goofy like this:
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gbfun
Wholenote
I eat cookies to provide you with the best possible experience.
Posts: 463
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Post by gbfun on Feb 1, 2020 3:24:18 GMT -5
Oh that's hilarious ! I have one of those except it's labeled differently. Same result though !
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Post by LTB on Feb 24, 2020 23:25:52 GMT -5
LoveThatBass, I grab a pic off the web and use MS Paint to destroy it. MS Paint is a really basic graphics manipulation package but it's good enough. It takes about a minute to turn something legit into something goofy like this: peegoo, sorry, just saw this. That is cool....Thanks!!!!
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