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Post by reverendrob on Dec 3, 2023 16:52:51 GMT -5
Hey, I love the Axcess, but hate floyds. Thankfully I has two LPs with Axcess heels without the damn bar.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 3, 2023 17:04:44 GMT -5
Fair points, all.
Just noticing things like the "Inspired By" line and others with the G headstock lately. That and what it costs to get a "proper" LP Standard these days makes me wonder what they're thinking. The Epi fanboys out there have long said that they wouldn't put the G headstock on the Epis because if they did no one would buy a Gibson; a silly notion as far as I'm concerned but, you know...
I bought my '84 Studio Standard in '88 (used) for $325. Seems like new LPs were around 1k at that time but I may be way off. Whatever the case, I remember thinking then that a new one was just never gonna happen for me so happening on this one was a boon even though I had to put it on layaway and pay it off in 30 days, which I did by skipping some bills (maybe all of 'em). Having re-read that, maybe the situation is pretty much the same for an 18 year-old today wanting a new LP. Us older folks tend to scoff at what they cost now but maybe things haven't changed that much.
Hard to say, but maybe I'd have been happy with something like an "Inspired By" back then. Who knows? Seems like there wasn't much middle-of-the-road stuff back then and you either got crap or one of the few name-brands. Incidentally, the guitar I was originally planning on buying when I ran into the LP was a new Japanese-made Tele that was going for $450ish. Of course anything from Japan was still considered garbage at that point but I didn't buy in to that. Sometimes I wonder if getting the Tele may have been the better idea...
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Post by reverendrob on Dec 3, 2023 18:28:35 GMT -5
Keep in mind that MIM Fenders are over $1k for many of them now, and MIA stuff is...$2k+ for anything not "entry level" - that Studio today would cost you close to $2k for the modern model.
Stuff has gone up pretty dramatically. As far as return on investment, that '84 Studio Standard is worth a LOT more now than a '88 or so MIJ Tele. A LOT more.
A MIJ Fender now is over 1k minimum new, when you can find them. Etc.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 3, 2023 19:00:07 GMT -5
I don't see a lot of guitars being sold to people saving their pennies and getting their dream guitar, whatever the cost. The middle price points seem to be more about the guy with a lot of money and a lot of guitars, and giving them something they might buy on impulse. He has a PRS, an SG and a bunch of Strats, but doesn't have a Les Paul... doesn't want one enough to buy an R8, but if he sees this Epiphone, it doesn't have the headstock he hates, he might throw it on the credit card and hope the wife doesn't notice.
Unfortunately, the kids learning and the real musicians tend to get the scraps from the table from the collectors, the wall hangers, the old men with GAS and so on. If they wanted something like the LP studio (or the faded series, or whatever) to be successful, they would do it. Same with mom & pop shops... no one wants to put the effort into those demographics.
I remember the Studio selling for about $1300 for a long stretch of time... Rob's guess that it would be around $2k is probably about right, but as I mentioned before, I don't think either Fender or Gibson are able to streamline domestic production well enough to pull off affordable stripped down models that are also profitable.
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Post by reverendrob on Dec 3, 2023 19:36:44 GMT -5
I don't see a lot of guitars being sold to people saving their pennies and getting their dream guitar, whatever the cost. The middle price points seem to be more about the guy with a lot of money and a lot of guitars, and giving them something they might buy on impulse. He has a PRS, an SG and a bunch of Strats, but doesn't have a Les Paul... doesn't want one enough to buy an R8, but if he sees this Epiphone, it doesn't have the headstock he hates, he might throw it on the credit card and hope the wife doesn't notice. Unfortunately, the kids learning and the real musicians tend to get the scraps from the table from the collectors, the wall hangers, the old men with GAS and so on. If they wanted something like the LP studio (or the faded series, or whatever) to be successful, they would do it. Same with mom & pop shops... no one wants to put the effort into those demographics. I remember the Studio selling for about $1300 for a long stretch of time... Rob's guess that it would be around $2k is probably about right, but as I mentioned before, I don't think either Fender or Gibson are able to streamline domestic production well enough to pull off affordable stripped down models that are also profitable. Gibson's price increases started ticking up after the fed wood raids, my '16 Studio HPs (which was the highest end of that line, and included road cases) were $1849 a pop. Now basic Studios with bags are that. The closest you get to "cheap" on Gibson are the "faded/worn/tribute stuff' without the paint work being finished/filled/redone. It's still decent (but the good stuff doesn't last long, like the $800 Jrs in '19)...but...the days of < $1k MIAs I think are DONE. |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 3, 2023 19:53:39 GMT -5
Stuff went up with covid, too. The added scarcity let a lot of companies raise prices. I wouldn't call it gouging, because I think many were likely overdue to raise prices, they were just afraid of being undercut or creating riots on message boards.
And, for all of the aforementioned reasons, I'm not sure these companies truly know how much it costs to make any given instrument. Engineering probably comes up with a number based on hypothetical labor hours which are unrealistic, and data is never fed back in from production. It is all stuff baked into their SQL software, they just never use it. They probably just crank stuff out and see what they make each month. Might be different now that the guy from Levi's is there, though.
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Post by Leftee on Dec 3, 2023 21:39:21 GMT -5
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 3, 2023 22:01:35 GMT -5
Just looked up my guitar; yikes, can't believe what people are asking.
I don't know what to think about what the big dogs are getting these days. Pretty happy with the stuff I have and anything I would really want is gonna cost me, been that way since long before covid, etc.
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Post by Lesterstrat on Dec 3, 2023 22:18:22 GMT -5
I remember 15 - 20 or so years ago when Epi came out with the “Elite” series. I spent probably 2 hours A/Bing one against a Gibby LP Std and, with the exception of one of the pups (the front, IIRC), it was every bit the guitar the LP was. I bought the Gibby, at near double the cost, however. The Epi Elite was right at, or just over, a grand and I knew when it came time to sell it, I’d lose my arse. I sold the Gibby for more than I paid for it.
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Post by Leftee on Dec 4, 2023 8:33:01 GMT -5
Those Elitists pretty much held their value - not adjusted for inflation. A nice one can be a good buy on the used market these days.
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Post by Lesterstrat on Dec 4, 2023 13:12:25 GMT -5
Those Elitists pretty much held their value - not adjusted for inflation. A nice one can be a good buy on the used market these days. Yeah, but no one knew they would at the time. I was very comfortable dropping the coin on the Gibby. And, it worked out nice. It’s good that it worked out for the folks that bought the Elites. They’re nice guitars! |
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chucksmi
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Posts: 173
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
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Post by chucksmi on Dec 6, 2023 11:41:19 GMT -5
It's pretty overpriced for what it is. You could buy a regular Epi, swap out the pickups and sell the old ones and be way, way ahead. I guess if you are that attached to the headstock shape that you are willing to pay $500 extra for it it's your money. Then, you also need to deal with the truss rod cover being wrong and the satin poly finish. It's also a veneer and not a real flame top.
I mean, for a player on a budget a Gibson Les Paul Tribute for $300 less seems like a better deal, and it's a REAL Gibson. A low end one yes, but still outranks an Epi to me.
All IMHO,
Chuck
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Post by reverendrob on Dec 6, 2023 13:05:14 GMT -5
It's pretty overpriced for what it is. You could buy a regular Epi, swap out the pickups and sell the old ones and be way, way ahead. I guess if you are that attached to the headstock shape that you are willing to pay $500 extra for it it's your money. Then, you also need to deal with the truss rod cover being wrong and the satin poly finish. It's also a veneer and not a real flame top. I mean, for a player on a budget a Gibson Les Paul Tribute for $300 less seems like a better deal, and it's a REAL Gibson. A low end one yes, but still outranks an Epi to me. All IMHO, Chuck It's a case of the hardshell case and the pickup set and the "Greeny" myth (which I don't give a crap about) give a hair more than the Tribute, but the Tribute will likely go up in resale value in a few years. The Greeny, well...nope. It's also a case of "Lowest end Gibby LP" versus "highest end Epi" means I'd probably want to play, but I'm not in the market for either. I like my LPs a LOT more modern! |
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Post by markfromhawaii on Dec 7, 2023 12:18:26 GMT -5
Check this out. At about 49 minutes into the vid, Lee talks to Aljon Go with Epiphone. As we’re already seeing, Epi is expanding its range, quality and price point while Gibson will reduce its lower tiered range. Interesting.
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Post by reverendrob on Dec 7, 2023 13:16:48 GMT -5
Not surprised - Gibson's been trying to sell at Fender MIA price points with set necks etc for ages and that's a losing proposition.
It's all getting a LOT more expensive fast, but we're hitting the financial collapse point anyway.
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chucksmi
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Post by chucksmi on Dec 7, 2023 16:36:48 GMT -5
One plus I give the Epi Greenie is it does have a 1 piece neck and not a scarf joint like the regular Epiphone LPs.
The other thing is it's got that Epiphone crapola nut on it which looks ridiculous and feels terrible.
Plus, it's into Gibson Studio money, and a Studio is a player's dream, a genuine workhorse for a gigging musician.
Chuck
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Post by LTB on Dec 7, 2023 23:28:26 GMT -5
Yea, pretty much this. I'm of the mind that my "perfect for me" weirdo spec Les Paul HPs...are ..superior to ANY other ones I've played, including vintage. They pushed EVERYTHING else off my "play this" pile for the last seven years now. I often find myself preferring PRS SE models to the more expensive ones for the inverse to this. PRS just tends to be a bit too strident for me. Love how they sound played by others, can't warm up to them myself... but the SEs can often be hard to put down. I'm not sure if PRS and the SE line are as distant in vibe as Gibson and Epiphone are, though.
I love reading your stuff and maybe I just got a bad one but the PRS SE I had a few years back did not hold a candle to the U.S.A. Original PRS’s a friend had. It felt and played like some of the non brand stuff back in the middle to late 60’s. |
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chucksmi
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Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
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Post by chucksmi on Dec 8, 2023 13:18:46 GMT -5
Not surprised - Gibson's been trying to sell at Fender MIA price points with set necks etc for ages and that's a losing proposition. It's all getting a LOT more expensive fast, but we're hitting the financial collapse point anyway. He he, that's what we said when bass boats hit $40,000. Today they're three times that and selling like hotcakes. |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 9, 2023 11:35:26 GMT -5
Sort of. If you make enough money on some stuff, you can afford to be sloppy. Tech has been like this before, and is why giant companies raking in millions then suddenly collapsing was a regular news story for a while. This is likely why a company will have one model that seems to cost twice what it should, while others seem to be loss leaders. They're keeping the lights on with just a few model lines. The guitar industry was too lucrative for too long and it will bite a lot of companies in the tukis.
Fender likely got some good processes setup in the early Schultz years, but the systems need to be maintained, and last I heard it was a bit of a mess of middle managers arguing with each other. I'm sure they have the systems, but probably aren't operating effectively.
Per your link, Fender has been smart in knowing how hard marketing was going to be. Most companies just saw an industry in perpetual growth, Fender knew kids weren't playing guitar as much. They had some cool advertising campaigns, tried the education stuff... unfortunately I don't think they've been effective enough, but they have had that foresight.
Gibson.... in the Henry years, you managed the company one way: Keep Henry happy. Henry was crazy. Think the craziest owner story you've ever heard, and add to it. That meant fudging data. He had pet projects and weird things he wanted worked on. Data could get written down on worksheets as much as you wanted (it probably didn't, it was probably just a weird requirement no one liked doing), but it could never really be reviewed.
Or, if someone really wants feature X to appear on a guitar, he'll fudge numbers to make it seem easier/cheaper than it is. I heard horror stories from the assembly department where they kept wanting to go satin, but satin is a nightmare for assembly because they have to figure out how to clean up all the scuffs/whatever for final inspection, and when you can't just walk over to a buffer, it gets VERY hard. It was like perpetual amnesia, because management didn't pay attention.
Sometimes (often?) the time studies are giving a stopwatch to your fastest guy, giving him the easiest task, let him be as sloppy as you need him to be, a couple Red Bulls, and using that as a benchmark. So, you have a theoretical, idealized task speed, and workers on the floor doing something else. It means the workers are constantly chastised, and the company has high turn over and wages are low. Managers complain "they can't find good help", and they think they did it better 20 years ago, because they've repeated those benchmarks so many times they believe the lie.
Rework is often left off and not factored into production costs. I knew a finish guy who worked... in Bozeman? I forget. This drove him up a wall. Yeah, you can spray, sand, flash coat, buff and be done pretty easily... but if your guys are messing around with drop fills and patches, it takes forever and looks like crap. And, you'll have a certain number of instruments that end up in the graveyard. Your time study will record the ones that don't need all the drop fills, not the ones that did, and no one is smart enough to go back and figure out how to never need the drop fills to begin with.... which would be standard Lean/Six Sigma/process engineering stuff in the real world, but in the music world is sometimes considered highly suspicious. (After listening to his rant I looked closely at a bunch of Gibson acoustics from that era, and he's right... you can see post-cure drop fills EVERYWHERE, layer lines from resprays, and all kinds of things. Much of that went away post-Henry.)
When middle managers don't have the support of upper managers, they're usually just in fire-fighting mode, and dealing with treating symptoms instead of diseases. From what I can tell, part of that management culture still exists there.
Also, mostly my own speculation, but I would guess Gibson has an old-crew vs new-crew thing going on with revisionist history. "Back in the way, we put on binding without any of these fancy tools twice as fast and it looked fine!", but dig into the data and it wasn't fast, and find the guitars and it was kinda ugly. Often this creates a funny gridlock in production meetings, and much needed production improvements get held up.
Martin and Taylor are two companies who really understood the right way to manufacture. Taylor has made some odd design choices and they will have to deal with that at some point, but their build quality is great. Martin is as close to a perfect guitar company as I can imagine. Probably because of CF4... rich kid at the family business doing menial tasks after school and during summer break, gets to know all the company old-timers, goes to business school to learn the right way to do a lot of this, comes back and applies it all. He embodied the two poles that need to cooperate. Also, the company is more likely to hire someone who could have just been "Jenny in accounting" at another company but is shaping necks because that's what the company in her home town is like, instead of having a bunch of hipster kids... but, that's a whole other HR issue, and another rant!
PRS seems to be doing really well, too. How much is from business sense and how much of it overlaps with good craftsmanship (the lean/six sigma/kaizen stuff arguably just comes from traditional craftsmanship, anyway), I'm not quite sure. Paul is a very smart guy and knows when to be a purist and when to think outside the box, and that has done VERY well for him.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 9, 2023 11:46:59 GMT -5
Not surprised - Gibson's been trying to sell at Fender MIA price points with set necks etc for ages and that's a losing proposition. It's all getting a LOT more expensive fast, but we're hitting the financial collapse point anyway. He he, that's what we said when bass boats hit $40,000. Today they're three times that and selling like hotcakes. I'm dealing with that in the repair world now. How high can I go with my rates? Will I price myself out? I have people who do hack work who charge more than me, but a lot of my customers are older and think $2 for a cup of coffee is crazy.
I like your analogy, even though I don't know much about bass boats.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 9, 2023 11:57:17 GMT -5
I often find myself preferring PRS SE models to the more expensive ones for the inverse to this. PRS just tends to be a bit too strident for me. Love how they sound played by others, can't warm up to them myself... but the SEs can often be hard to put down. I'm not sure if PRS and the SE line are as distant in vibe as Gibson and Epiphone are, though.
I love reading your stuff and maybe I just got a bad one but the PRS SE I had a few years back did not hold a candle to the U.S.A. Original PRS’s a friend had. It felt and played like some of the non brand stuff back in the middle to late 60’s. Yeah, not all of them are gold. Some are crazy cool, though.
Also, I wouldn't say they hold a candle to the USA models, either. The USA PRS guitars are a great example of a well built instrument i just don't enjoy playing. Kinda like how Leftee likes hearing Fender amps, but would rather plug into a Marshall. It is just me. I like hearing other people play them, I just don't like them in my own hands. If someone loves the USA ones, the SE is going to be a hard sell. An SE doesn't have as much of a "modern" vibe with the heavy bass, and almost have a bit more jangle to them, which suits my vintage-preferring tastes. To me, that is an exaggerated version of the Gibson vs. Epiphone thing. It isn't just about "one is more expensive and thus higher quality", there is plenty of room for subjective tastes to come into play.
Or, taken out of the music industry.... someone can enjoy a decent light beer over a stinky double IPA. Just because it is cheaper doesn't mean his tastes are worse. They just have to be marketed differently.
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Post by Leftee on Dec 9, 2023 15:04:52 GMT -5
I see your points. 😊
I suppose it’s more my disbelief that modern companies can’t (or aren’t) making more data-driven decisions and tightening up processes.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 9, 2023 15:15:04 GMT -5
Hahaha, I went on for a long time not out of combativeness on the point.... more because I've been in the industry 20 years now and get frustrated with it.
Part of the problem is there is a lot of magical thinking that guitars are inherently different than other manufactured products. And, they are. But not as much as they want to think they are.
Another part (I think) is just that it is a magnification of problems American manufacturing has in general. Asian manufacturers much more readily adopt common sense practices than American ones, and it has to be sort of sold to the Americans who are inherently skeptical, while it is more intuitive in other countries. The example I always think of is the car industry.... Kia/Hyundai is manufacturing in America and is doing okay with this, while American manufacturers keep thinking they need to move production to Asia to keep up. Is it the workers, or the management?
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Post by reverendrob on Dec 9, 2023 21:46:03 GMT -5
I don't blame the workers at this point - the one thing that has changed is the management (and to a certain degree the overall business operating environment from resource scarcity to gov't stuff) - the workers will do what they're taught and paid to do, they can do MUCH harder work than making guitar stuff consistently in how many other industries?
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chucksmi
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Posts: 173
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
Age: I saw Jerry Live
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Post by chucksmi on Jan 10, 2024 14:40:35 GMT -5
Kiesel still makes a darned nice guitar for the money. Small company, family owned and everything is custom built and affordable. They're what PRS used to be.
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