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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 7, 2020 22:21:36 GMT -5
I got a bit deeper into the set-up on my bass today. I knew I needed to get back into this at some point because the set-up was really never finessed. The problem I have encountered is the second fret on G (high) string seems to be high. I am getting a buzz when fretted at the first fret. If fretted at or anyplace above the second fret the tone is clear and crisp. I am finding no problem with any other string at any fretted position. The truss-rod adjustment seems to be pretty good to me and the saddles at the bridge seem right to me as well … It's just that G string second fret on the high side edge of the neck with a problem when the string is fretted at the first fret. I don't have a fret rocker so my first question might be is there a common tool that could do the job? The span from fret 1 to fret 3 is just under 4 inches. I've looked around and am not coming up with anything quickly to use as a do-fer. instrument in question DSC_1854 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr DSC_2087 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Below are the 1st, 2nd and 3rd frets side view. It's a bit tough to see much in the PIC, but I am wondering is a slight tap on the edge of that second fret might be in order, just to be sure it is fully seated down in the channel. DSC_2085 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr This is by no means an inexpensive instrument and I don't want to jump into any process on it and come out of it with a bigger problem than the current one. Any advice?
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 7, 2020 22:30:14 GMT -5
Look closely at the end of the fret with magnification and bright light. Is there a gap under the fret in either side of the tang? If so, you could give it a light rap with a hard plastic mallet; don't use brass or steel.
One thing that might work for a long fret rocker is a stamped steel rectangular blade of a pancake flipper.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 7, 2020 23:44:33 GMT -5
Looking at it with a light and magnification it's a bit hard to tell for sure ... it might be up the slightest bit. I'm not certain of it though. I did dig deep enough into another box and discoved my nut files. The length on this is good and it's thick enough to not distort on me while using it. I am indeed detecting some rock with fret 2 being the fulcrum. DSC_2094 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I'll check it out tomorrow with a more well rested head and figure my next move.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 8, 2020 9:30:53 GMT -5
If you use something like a nut file, machinist's ruler, or other tool that is going to be darn close to straight but not dead on precise, a good trick is to try both sides. Usually if one side is a bit concave then the other side will be a bit convex, so if you get the same result with both sides... well, it won't guarantee anything, but it increases the probability of your deduction. I don't doubt your diagnosis, but if you get snagged and want to double check it, that can help.
Warmoth fingerboards are more prone to being kinda wavy and dippy at times because they really like having that super polished look, and can get carried away. If that was the cause on this, you'd have more faint buzzes and they'd occur in a few places. Having just one big culprit does point towards a fret. As Peegoo says, you should see a clear gap if that is the case. They use a fret arbor, and they can often get hung up on junk in the slot without telegraphing through the handle, and can be easy to miss.
If you decide to hammer it, use a soft faced hammer. I like to hit closer to the center, and sort of drag the hammer out towards the edge through the stroke. It is easier to do than to describe, but you'll figure it out. If you hit direct on the corner, you can mush it. You're extra likely to do that because they glue the frets, both in the slot and under the tang, so you'll have to fight that a bit. You'll know you dropped the fret when that bit of glue pudges out a bit. You can just knock it down with a file or sanding sponge.
If you still don't have any luck, look at the first fret and see if it looks crunched into the wood. It might be hard to see, because if they did this, it can be easy enough to cover up their tracks in the fret end dressing process. Hitting the arbor too close to the edge of the fingerboard can do this to a neck, as would using the incorrect radius caul. It isn't likely given the width of the neck (they tend to just slide out of the cradle) and hardness of the fingerboard, but hey, worth checking if you get stumped.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 8, 2020 11:20:35 GMT -5
If you use something like a nut file, machinist's ruler, or other tool that is going to be darn close to straight but not dead on precise, a good trick is to try both sides. Usually if one side is a bit concave then the other side will be a bit convex, so if you get the same result with both sides... well, it won't guarantee anything, but it increases the probability of your deduction. I don't doubt your diagnosis, but if you get snagged and want to double check it, that can help. Warmoth fingerboards are more prone to being kinda wavy and dippy at times because they really like having that super polished look, and can get carried away. If that was the cause on this, you'd have more faint buzzes and they'd occur in a few places. Having just one big culprit does point towards a fret. As Peegoo says, you should see a clear gap if that is the case. They use a fret arbor, and they can often get hung up on junk in the slot without telegraphing through the handle, and can be easy to miss. If you decide to hammer it, use a soft faced hammer. I like to hit closer to the center, and sort of drag the hammer out towards the edge through the stroke. It is easier to do than to describe, but you'll figure it out. If you hit direct on the corner, you can mush it. You're extra likely to do that because they glue the frets, both in the slot and under the tang, so you'll have to fight that a bit. You'll know you dropped the fret when that bit of glue pudges out a bit. You can just knock it down with a file or sanding sponge. If you still don't have any luck, look at the first fret and see if it looks crunched into the wood. It might be hard to see, because if they did this, it can be easy enough to cover up their tracks in the fret end dressing process. Hitting the arbor too close to the edge of the fingerboard can do this to a neck, as would using the incorrect radius caul. It isn't likely given the width of the neck (they tend to just slide out of the cradle) and hardness of the fingerboard, but hey, worth checking if you get stumped. To address the bold aspects of your commentary …. Yes on the both sides of the straight edge to minimize error factor. This neck and finger board are un-finshed Wenge probably not much extra smoothing going on. I do sense a slight difference, but not a clear defined gap I wondered about the glue issue. Do I stand a chance of breaking the fret loose and creating an instability at that end of the fret if that adhesion is damaged or broken? You mention the glue might "pudge out a bit". are you indicating that the glue used does not harden? I had not thought about it … but you are correct that the 1st fret being low would cause the same exact symptom. A couple of things I can add this morning: These are stainless steel frets to whatever extent it matters. When I fret the string at the first fret I can see it is visibly sitting at the second fret (no visible separation). When I fret the string at the second fret I can actually see the strings across the board between the 3rd fret and the string. While it is seeming (more and more) to me that the second fret is sitting a tad high … I'm not quite ready to start pounding on it yet. I'll let this soak for a bit and if anyone has additional thoughts or ideas or responses to my commentary … I'd like to hear it.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 8, 2020 11:51:16 GMT -5
They do smooth out the fingerboards with a medium grit free-cut on an orbital sander. It doesn't result in a gloss, so much as smooth, bare wood, removing any signs of sandpaper marks, except maybe the rogue orbital tail. It isn't that dramatic, and IMO not worth the effort. When I do a refret, I sand with the gain up to either 220, 320 or 400 depending on the density of the fingerboard material, and I get a great looking fingerboard without the orbital issues. But, that's a tangent waiting to happen.
The glue does harden, but they use a gel type and it remains a bit plastic-like when it dries. You won't make the fret "bounce"... that can happen with some guitars, usually ones with oversized slots or frets that are bent out of whack before you even get to them. Sometimes that happens with Epiphones and similar instruments, and they have to be clamped and glued to stay put. That won't be the case for you... if anything, the slots are too tight, and since it was done on an arbor, they won't be bent strangely. You likely won't bend it out of whack if you stay away from the hard faced hammers. Even with the thin type super glue which hardens to approximately what you get with a hard poly finish (not identical, but that's yet another tangent) you can still mush it with some hammer hits.
Stainless is less likely to conform to radius irregularities or be generally forgiving, so it makes sense it would be a bit high. If someone is incredibly thorough with their fretting it will make little difference which material they use, but the bottom line is that you HAVE to be thorough on that stuff with stainless... so, if you're hearing mixed reports about how easy or difficult stainless is, that's why. For your hammering, it won't change stuff too much. If you were to mangle the fret, it becomes harder to go back and fix what you did, but I don't think you're more likely to mangle it. Honestly, the fret is down enough that it won't have enough travel to be a problem. If you were putting the whole fret in, it would be a different matter, but you're just love-tapping. In fact, you could get away with a hard faced hammer with this, but if it makes you nervous it is best to stick to a soft faced one.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 8, 2020 13:29:20 GMT -5
Here is my proposed approach: Solid wood block behind the neck small mallet, has both a plastic and brass heads. I figure the solid wood block behind that second fret will help insure my "love taps" can deliver the intended result. Any last minute advice on this? …. Also secondary question below PIC DSC_2102 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I can see that I will be able to cut the nut deeper on this string (and maybe another string or two) I believe my G string here is a 45. My closest nut file is .046". If I go beyond that I would jump to .056" of my assortment. I'll be starting with the .046. Is there a rule of thumb to go by on this determination?
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 8, 2020 14:09:10 GMT -5
a .046" will be fine. The only time a nut will be finicky about very small amounts of being over sized is when the break angle is horrible. On a bass, that's the classic A string on a J or P bass that doesn't go down far enough. Your angled peghead will be just fine.
I'd put something between the neck and the block... you PROBABLY won't leave a mark since you're hitting lightly and wenge is harder than that block, but some thin leather or cork or something would give you the peace of mind. Lacking those things, a very soft wood like balsa or basswood can be good, too.
Leaning on the neck a bit to keep it from recoiling might help, too.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 8, 2020 14:16:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the guidance. On a couple of the other strings I have an 80 and a 100 … my files are .085" and .105". I imagine the extra five one-thousandths is not a concern there. I can now report that the buzz is gone and I was also able to lower the saddle at the bridge a bit as well. If I can successfully work this nut a bit I believe this bass should be about as good as I can get it.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Apr 8, 2020 14:18:33 GMT -5
You can go pretty oversized with the file and achieve good results if you have to; you're making a round-bottomed slot after all. I usually try to use one that's around .005 over but you can use your .046, just angle it back and forth a bit to give it a little more width if need be. You can mark the slot with pencil to see what you're doing if ya want. FWIW the few times I've had a popped fret at the edge like that tapping 'em in never worked, I ended up gluing and clamping. Hopefully it works for your situation.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 8, 2020 19:55:08 GMT -5
So, the hammering went well? You skipped that part!
Those file sizes are fine for that peghead. If you're doing something like a J-Bass, I'd be inclined to go smaller and open the sides as need be by rocking the file. My file set has a .078" that I use for A strings, for example. The technically correct way is to go SLIGHTLY smaller and do this, but again, on a bass with an angled peghead, you are going to be just fine.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 9, 2020 16:36:53 GMT -5
So, the hammering went well? You skipped that part! Well, I didn't really skip it. I read your response and went forward with it then I did some of the nut work and then I responded. Your response I credited for giving me the confidence to go ahead with it. Sadly, my D string broke at the peg on me … so the bass is somewhat out of commission until I get the new string. This bass requires the *super long* strings, so not just everyone has them on the shelf. I bought a .065 on eBay and it will take about a week to get here. I sincerely do appreciate you input.
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