Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 25, 2020 7:59:55 GMT -5
Fender 60th Anniversary Classic Jazzmaster.
It came with 9s. The truss rod needs a little tightening. If I string it with 10s, will that compensate for tweaking the neck?
On these vintage style guitars the truss rod adjustment is at the heel of the neck. You have to loosen the four bolts holding the neck. Then you wiggle, waggle, pop, smack, the neck out of the pocket to angle the neck enough you can get to the adjustment screw.
I was working on it yesterday and I couldn’t get it loose...it’s in there very tight.
I wanted to string it with 10s anyway...and hoping that would take care of tightening the adjustment screw.
thanks
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 25, 2020 8:28:15 GMT -5
No, 10s would likely cause even more relief / bowing. Need 8s to avoid truss rod tightening.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 25, 2020 8:28:41 GMT -5
If the neck is too flat with 9s, 10s might pull it into a little more relief.
If the neck has too much relief with 9s, 10s may make it worse.
But there's no guarantee because some pieces of maple are very stiff, and some can be a bit whippy/rubbery.
Whippy necks respond well to truss rod adjustments, and they also tend to be affected by hand pressure when playing; you can add vibrato by lightly pushing & pulling on the neck.
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 25, 2020 8:39:41 GMT -5
I don’t want to do two quotes so thank you both. With 9s it has a little cupped bow or concave.
I think i better try again to get the neck loose.
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Tall-Fir
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Liking both kinds of music—Country and Western!
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Post by Tall-Fir on Apr 25, 2020 8:49:04 GMT -5
Wish you the best of luck with your adjustment and setup Ryder. I don’t have the savy to take necks off guitars and try to adjust them, and get them all back in shape.
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Post by stratcowboy on Apr 25, 2020 8:53:51 GMT -5
If the neck is as tight as it sounds in the neck-pocket, proceed with caution. If you really have to apply pressure to get the neck out, you can sometimes chip the surrounding paint. Just take your time and be careful and it will be fine.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 25, 2020 9:00:31 GMT -5
I just converted a Squier strat into a pseudo baritone. 14-18-28-38-48-58 tuned to B. I don't know the difference in tension, they actually feel fairly slack, but I've had to do 2 trussrod adjustments to straighten the neck, so far. Sometimes it takes a couple of days. Also, check your intonation after adjusting the trussrod because you just changed the distance from the nut to the saddles.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 25, 2020 9:04:36 GMT -5
Remove all four screws.
Lift the neck straight out; have the guitar laying flat, face up. Lift the neck vertically up, out of the guitar body.
If you pull it out horizontally (slide it in the neck pocket), you risk cracking the finish and the wood on the treble side.
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 25, 2020 9:20:03 GMT -5
Remove all four screws. Lift the neck straight out; have the guitar laying flat, face up. Lift the neck vertically up, out of the guitar body. If you pull it out horizontally (slide it in the neck pocket), you risk cracking the finish and the wood on the treble side. Ok, I do not want to crack wood. I've seen a video on this saying to push down on the neck to get the heel to angle up just enough to get to that screw. Thanks you guys, I am going to take my time with this.
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 25, 2020 10:34:48 GMT -5
Wow, easier than I thought it would be. No cracking, breaking, or finish cracks.
I took the screws to the point the next thing would have been to take them out by hand. It came right out. I have the screw about a quarter turn to the left and now am about to put the heavier strings on.
I know if it's not enough, I can loosen the strings enough to pop the neck up and adjust again.
Great info, as usual Peegoo! Thank you!
Thanks to you all who posted, I appreciate it.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 25, 2020 12:54:05 GMT -5
Cheers!
Remember that clockwise puts tension on the rod and forces back bow into a neck.
Counterclockwise relaxes the rod and allows the strings to pull the neck into relief.
Sometimes you go to adjust a rod and there's no tension at all. But if there is tension on the rod, most guitars will respond properly with 1/4 turn or less.
Traditional truss rods work in one direction only: to pull a back bow in the neck. Many modern guitars have double-acting (2-way) rods, which can force not only a back bow (less relief), but also a forward bow (more relief).
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 25, 2020 14:13:47 GMT -5
I figured if I turned the screw a little to the left, the 10s would bring it back to not quite flat. I’ll watch it the rest of the day and see what happens by tomorrow.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 25, 2020 18:32:23 GMT -5
I figured if I turned the screw a little to the left, the 10s would bring it back to not quite flat. I’ll watch it the rest of the day and see what happens by tomorrow. By screw do you mean the truss rod nut, and by to the left do you mean counter clockwise? Because that would add more bow, not take any out, especially if you're bumping up to 10s. Something isn't adding up, unless you just misspoke somewhere. If you aren't happy with how it plays, let us/me know and we'll see what we can do to talk you through it. Also, let us know how you evaluate how much bow you have... that is important.
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 25, 2020 18:43:15 GMT -5
I could have misspoken somewhere.
Ok, at the heel of the neck is the truss rod nut but on mine it looks like the end of a screw (a real big phillips). I turned it left to leave a little bow in there since I was putting on 10s. My thinking is that the 10s would pull the bow out...is that misspoken?
Or are you saying the heavier strings would put more bow in it?
From Peegoo, "Remember that clockwise puts tension on the rod and forces back bow into a neck. Counterclockwise relaxes the rod and allows the strings to pull the neck into relief."
Maybe I'm doing the opposite of what I wanted to do? "By screw do you mean the truss rod nut, and by to the left do you mean counter clockwise?"
Yes, the nut, and yes, counter clockwise. "Evaluate how much bow it has"? My eye is all I use. If it's concave, and I believe it's supposed to be slightly concave, correct? Tomorrow I'll see what it has done overnight. If it goes into back bow or convex, I'll loosen the nut.
I must admit when I start overthinking this I get confused. So, whatever you want to add is fine. The guitar plays great right now with a slight bit of bow, concave on the top of the neck. thanks
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 25, 2020 18:52:43 GMT -5
You need to tighten the truss rod, turn the adjuster clockwise. The pull from the strings bows the neck, the pull from the truss rod straightens it back out. Change to a string gauge with more pull, need to counteract that with more pull from the truss rod.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 25, 2020 22:51:33 GMT -5
It has a flat head screwdriver adjustment, but it is actually a nut. You can take it all the way out if you want to see what it looks like.
Think of a string at the end of a stick, like a bow and arrow you'd make as a kid. You pull on the string, the stick bows. The harder you pull, the more it bows. Thicker strings pull harder to hit equivalent pitches, so 10s will pull harder than 9s. The truss rod, when "tightened" is akin to pulling the neck in the opposite direction (not precisely what is happening physically, but we'll go with it) causing a back bow. Clockwise, tightening, will pull it back, loosening will do less and let the string pull it forward.
Going by eye can be rife with optic illusions and other problems. It isn't a bad method, but it can be wise to double check. Try this: fret a string at the first or second fret, and also at, say, the 15th fret. Bam, you've just created a shockingly precise straight edge! You can look at the gap between the string and the frets around the center of where you're holding the string. You can lightly tap the string with a free finger (probably the pinky on your left hand). If it doesn't tap, it is either dead straight, or back bowed. If there is a decent size gap, then it has too much bow. You want to go for something around .005"-.008", which is ROUGHLY business card thickness, maybe a tad thicker. Be sure to check both bass side and treble side as they might be different.
Another test is to force the guitar to buzz when you play it. Play it in the first position (but not open strings) hard enough to buzz, and make a mental note of how buzzy it is. Now do the same around the 12th fret. More buzz at open position means too straight or backbow, more buzz up top than open means too much forward bow.
Side note: the reason you don't fret farther up the neck for the string-straight edge trick is because the truss rod does little to nothing that far up the neck. It varies from neck to neck and truss rod type to truss rod type, but generally the most movement happens from the first to 9th or 10th frets. That gets into a whole other area where you can run into S curves and so forth, but that's another thread entirely.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 26, 2020 1:36:11 GMT -5
When I'm describing to someone how a truss rod works, I usually use a violin bow to demonstrate.
Hold the bow horizontal in playing position, with the wood up and the horse hair down. Loosen or tighten the the frog screw on the bow, just like a truss rod nut, and the bow behaves just like a guitar neck. The horse hair acts like the truss rod: it puts tension on the wood and forces it to flex.
See how the wood straightens out?
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 26, 2020 8:58:45 GMT -5
Thanks you guys. I’ll be checking it later or tomorrow. Today is our anniversary so I probably won’t be playing much...or at least I won’t have much alone time with my other gir...I mean, my guitar!
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 26, 2020 14:17:33 GMT -5
Being married to a retired librarian has it's perks. She loves to read. After I put up some small solar lights for her she wanted to read on the porch. No, not by the solar lights.
So, I loosened my strings, angled the neck heel up and tightened the truss rod. To the right. I think that was my mistake though. Now it has too much bow. And aren't the strings going to put more bow in it?
I should have left it because when I checked it per you all's instructions it wasn't bad. Am I re-learning something I used to know? Hit 70 and the forgetfulness starts in.
Again, I'll see what happens. I'm getting pretty good at getting the neck angle up enough to see the truss nut.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 26, 2020 14:46:03 GMT -5
Turning it clockwise / to the right, should have reduced the bow. Confusing!
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Post by stratcowboy on Apr 26, 2020 15:14:32 GMT -5
Ya' know...I've done lots of setups over the years and my guitars play great. So I haven't had to mess with them for an awful long time. They are all very stable instruments. And they all have the truss rod adjustment at the headstock (which I prefer). But being that I haven't done this in a super long time, and reading this thread...man...I'm scrambled now. LOL...
If I ever need to do the adjustments again, I'll definitely be going back to my little adjustment brochures that are in the filing cabinet somewhere.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 26, 2020 16:03:47 GMT -5
Ryder, this will get you in the ballpark:
Make sure the guitar is in tune. You always check the neck profile with all strings tuned up.
Lay the guitar flat on a table. Lightly place a capo between the nut and the first fret. Don't mash the strings...just enough so all six strings ring clearly from the 1st fret.
Lightly press the low E string down at the 17th fret. Holding the string there, look closely at the gap between the bottom of the low E string and the top of the 8th fret. You should see a very small gap there. Most guitars (electric and acoustic) play well with a gap of about .012" there. If you work with magnification and a bright light on the opposite side of the guitar, you'll easily see this gap.
You don't have a .012" thickness gauge ("feeler gauge)? It's easy to make one.
Snip off a 2" length of a guitar string that has a gauge of between .011 and .013. You can steal 2" from a brand new set of strings and they'll still be usable. Superglue the little length of wire into the end of a little dowel or a Popsicle stick (handle) so there's about 1" of string protruding from the end. There's your gauge.
Now, with the capo at fret 1 and lightly pressing the low E at the 17th fret, slip the tip of the little wire between the top of the 8th fret and the bottom of the E string. Slowly move the gauge side to side. When the gap is correct, the wire should just barely hang up in the gap before slipping through.
If it passes through the gap with room to spare, turn the truss rod nut 1/8th of a turn clockwise (tighten the rod), retune the guitar, and check the gap again.
If the string is laying on the top of the 8th fret (no gap or way less than .012"), you need to loosen the rod counterclockwise. Loosening the rod is not a matter of just rotating the nut to the left. You must over-loosen the rod and then tighten it again.
In this case, loosen the truss rod 1/4 turn, and then tighten it 1/8th turn. What you've ultimately done here is loosen the rod by 1/8th turn from where it originally was. The reason for this is the rod should always be adjusted by putting it into tension. If you simply loosen the rod and reassemble it on the guitar, it can continue to slip beyond your initial setting and the neck will have too much relief.
All this sounds way more complicated than it actually i, because I've tried to spell out in detail the hows & whys.
In reality, it's a simple adjustment.
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Ryder
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Butterscotch Blues
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Post by Ryder on Apr 26, 2020 18:29:16 GMT -5
I did the feeler guage and took it all apart again, and then measured and did it again. I'm done now and I do believe I've got it now. Geez, you'd hope so.
I read over my initial post or three. What was I thinking?
Who knows, brain fart? I've done this plenty of times on my guitars. Never had a vintage truss rod but that shouldn't make any difference.
Oh well, I'm glad there are good people here who are willing to help.
thanks a bunch guys!
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