matryx81
Wholenote
I think I know the reason but I can't spell it.
Posts: 763
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Post by matryx81 on May 22, 2020 16:10:17 GMT -5
Seems a lot of the group here is miffed by all of this. And I don't blame you. All I can say is...don't forget to vote. Yeah, I get pretty wound up on stuff like this. My own autobiography is why - as I mentioned above, I had incredibly lack luster, disenchanting experiences with higher ed. I watched a lot of peers go in for liberal arts degrees and come out with absolutely no knowledge on their fields of study you couldn't get from a basic wikipedia entry. I had peers coming out with crippling student loan debt. And up until a few years ago whenever I talked about it I was told I had a "bad attitude" or was "making excuses" or "didn't want to work hard" or something else. If you complained about price, they'd just say that if you worked hard you wouldn't have to pay anything because so many scholarships existed, or offer something fluffy like "you can't put a price on education" (guess what, they're putting prices on it every day!) Questioning anything about higher ed... quality, price, value for the money, their altruism, was so far off the table.
Things are different now. Circumstances may not have changed, but it isn't an Emperor's New Clothes thing anymore, and for that I'm thankful. Though, I am still prone to ranting. Funky, IIRC from the old board I am about a year older than you and had a similar experience concerning college as you did. Back in the `90s, it was said to us that if you didn`t go to college you would end up as Matt Foley. I don`t think you should be sorry for ranting. College no longer has the value it did once (I think if were born between about 1968 and 1974 it was beneficial). If education didn`t have a price, then tuition would be free. I wonder if Lori Loughlin is in trouble because she got caught and the myth has to be kept up that college is sacred and has such a high value that it must be kept that way. To quote Frank Zappa, we can`t fess up to the fact that we are owned and operated by a bunch of really bad people.
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pawprint
Halfnote
Posts: 77
Formerly Known As: pawprint
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Post by pawprint on May 22, 2020 16:10:23 GMT -5
I've been following this story pretty closely. I used to be in college administration (for around 20 years), and I once was associate dean at a large business school in New York City. I cannot tell you how absolutely repulsed I have been with the parents certainly, but the schools especially. I worked SO hard to ensure that the system worked honestly and fairly, and stories like this just cut my legs off.
I was fortunate in the '70s to attend an Ivy League school. Put myself through it, and did not have to take out a loan to do so. I graduated with no student debt. What I saw, though, was the huge number of kids of rich people, most of whom had no interest in being there, who attended and let me tell you - these were not the sharpest tools in the shed. I worked hard to get in, worked hard to stay in, and half of these kids were in danger of flunking out, Of course many did. Parents' weekends were exercises in gluttony and excess. There were very few of us who came from somewhat meager beginnings.
The university and the parents were complicit in this. Does anyone REALLY think that this is doing the kids a favor. Felicity Huffman, who went to jail for a couple of weeks - I read that her two kids are going to very fine schools that they got into by themselves. Did someone like her, whose kids have had EVERY advantage in life, really feel the need to cheat? I guess so! And what a life lesson for her kids - my mom thinks so little of me that she paid money to cheat me into college.
I HAD thought that this kind of thing were a thing of the past, and have been upset that I was so naive when this story broke. Our educational system is SO broken, and the pandemic will undoubtedly influence the system for years and years to come. Sorry for the rant!
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on May 22, 2020 16:59:05 GMT -5
Funky, IIRC from the old board I am about a year older than you and had a similar experience concerning college as you did. Back in the `90s, it was said to us that if you didn`t go to college you would end up as Matt Foley. Wow, killer memory. I hadn't posted on the old board in a long time. I'm guessing the "81" in your handle is your birth year, in which case you are one year older than me. I graduated HS in 2001. Yup, that was the vibe I got from pretty much everyone in high school. As well as, "no matter what you study, employers want college grads so much you'll always make enough money", and no mention that WHERE you go might make a difference. If anyone mentioned the cost, you were quickly admonished. Again, either "you can't put a price on..." or that the job force is so desperate for college grads that they'll pay you $65k/year out of college because that comparative basket weaving degree is so valuable. That debt will be paid down in no time. I had a friend who did an automotive thing in lieu of college. Everyone thought he was nuts because he was a straight A student and took all the college prep classes. He's happily married with kids, owns his own house in a really good neighborhood, is always driving a new vehicle, and his job is secure. I'd run into him every so often and ask if he knew that all the talk in high school was BS or not, he usually just smiles. Oh well. Knowing what I know now, I'm still not sure what I would've done differently. Everyone was trying to get me to go into computer programming because I took the most advanced class in my high school, learned my stuff in the first five minutes, and helped the teacher tutor the other kids for the rest of the class each time. But, I kept hearing horror stories over the years where you get certifications A, B and C, and then they're outdated or wrong for the market and you're unemployable, and constantly dealing with carrots and sticks. No thanks. I have no idea what would've worked for me. That goes double for kids graduating today. I'd have absolutely no idea what to tell an 18 year old right now.
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Post by larryguitar54 on May 22, 2020 18:12:05 GMT -5
We need to work this out so Aunt Becky is not in prison. Make her apologize or write sentences on a blackboard or something but--geezuz---it's worse crime to lock up a fine looking thing like that.
The Atty Gen is sending a message to people who don't jump at the first plea offer.
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matryx81
Wholenote
I think I know the reason but I can't spell it.
Posts: 763
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Post by matryx81 on May 22, 2020 21:40:34 GMT -5
Wow, killer memory. I hadn't posted on the old board in a long time. I'm guessing the "81" in your handle is your birth year, in which case you are one year older than me. I graduated HS in 2001. Yup, that was the vibe I got from pretty much everyone in high school. As well as, "no matter what you study, employers want college grads so much you'll always make enough money", and no mention that WHERE you go might make a difference. If anyone mentioned the cost, you were quickly admonished. Again, either "you can't put a price on..." or that the job force is so desperate for college grads that they'll pay you $65k/year out of college because that comparative basket weaving degree is so valuable. That debt will be paid down in no time. You are correct concerning my handle. You are also correct about the vibe of the time. I went to school for 3 years. I wish I had taken a year off. When you spend 12 years in school and discover at about year 5 that teachers generally can`t deal with intellects sharper than theirs and that they don`t like having their authority tested, you tend to want a break. I also recall that the attitude you mention above prevailed quite well in the early 2000s on the FDP.
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Post by HeavyDuty on May 23, 2020 14:04:41 GMT -5
I think its unfair, schools shouldn't sell admission. But, who should be punished for that, the school who makes it available, or the rich people who take advantage of it? Personally, I don't get it, and the only reason that its such a big to-do is because there are famous people involved. This is kinda my view, it feels like a populist response. Assuming no tax money was involved, how is this any different than getting into a bidding war for a house that is for sale?
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Post by HeavyDuty on May 23, 2020 14:08:25 GMT -5
By the way...Heavy Duty...how's the family coping? Hope everybody's OK.
They’re doing OK, thanks for asking. The cremation is over, and Michelle’s more at peace with it now.
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Post by leonedibben on Aug 18, 2022 10:27:54 GMT -5
I don’t know what to do about this, but it’s clearly not right. I get that it’s very profitable for a school to get a rich man’s kid because it will help it funds itself better. But there also should be room for smart kids that want to study.
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Grizbear-NJ
Wholenote
"I'll do the BEATING around here"
Posts: 217
Age: 71
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Post by Grizbear-NJ on Aug 19, 2022 0:01:39 GMT -5
Let me add some fuel to the fire. Academia is only part of the problem. I fully understand, that if a person wants to become a Medical Doctor, go to medical school; if a person wants to become a Lawyer, go to Law School. Engineer, Scientist, Professor, so on and so on; the list is endless. The main focus or question is: Who or What determines the level, reputation, or value of the learning establishment, and why is one establishment better (or preferred) over another. Mention Yale Law School, mention MIT, mention Cal-Tech, mention Princeton; it's amazing but true; if you mention those schools on a resume, doors open that would not open for a person with a degree from a different school; regardless of skill or experience.
Perspective: Government Agencies, Private Agencies, and private businesses utilize that policy when hiring personnel. I think we can all agree, that the people who do the hiring, really need to re-think their policies.
I had a conversation with a friend of mine, who works for a company (no name) in Human Resources. The company position is: they consider a work candidate an "under-achiever" with out a degree of some sort, and the "Ivy League Schools" get preference. GO FIGURE!
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Aug 19, 2022 7:11:05 GMT -5
Let me add some fuel to the fire. Academia is only part of the problem. I fully understand, that if a person wants to become a Medical Doctor, go to medical school; if a person wants to become a Lawyer, go to Law School. Engineer, Scientist, Professor, so on and so on; the list is endless. The main focus or question is: Who or What determines the level, reputation, or value of the learning establishment, and why is one establishment better (or preferred) over another. Mention Yale Law School, mention MIT, mention Cal-Tech, mention Princeton; it's amazing but true; if you mention those schools on a resume, doors open that would not open for a person with a degree from a different school; regardless of skill or experience. Perspective: Government Agencies, Private Agencies, and private businesses utilize that policy when hiring personnel. I think we can all agree, that the people who do the hiring, really need to re-think their policies. I had a conversation with a friend of mine, who works for a company (no name) in Human Resources. The company position is: they consider a work candidate an "under-achiever" with out a degree of some sort, and the "Ivy League Schools" get preference. GO FIGURE! The interesting thing about this reverence for degrees from some schools is that it's largely based on how hard it is to get in. In other words, there's all this respect for someone based primarily on how they performed in high school (since that largely determines your eligibility). Further, undergrad degrees from different schools don't vary enough to automatically make a candidate from one school better than another. Personality, dedication, ability to work in groups (if relevant) etc are all more important criteria for a good hire. A person can have a 4.0 from MIT and still be a crappy fit and another can have a 3.2 from Alabama and be an excellent fit for your team. I work with people who ooh and ahh over ivy league (and equivalent) degrees and go gaga over people with a masters or doctorate. In engineering, those hyper academic types can be a real PITA. We had one that was more interested in doing what was theoretically correct (at massive cost) vs what was equally sufficient but at much greater cost. He's gone, but we still curse some of the stuff he did that is a PITA to maintain (because it is waaaayyy more complicated than it needed to be) but would have gotten him an A in school.
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Post by leonedibben on Aug 19, 2022 7:24:18 GMT -5
I don’t know what to do about this, but it’s clearly not right. I get that it’s very profitable for a school to get a rich man’s kid because it will help it funds itself better. But there also should be room for smart kids that want to study. Our country loses good specialists because dumb rich kids are more important for schools than actually good students. I think those rich people who buy their kids places in the universities should be punished and shamed publicly. I am glad that my school, asa college miami does not do that. It’s a small private school; they are not hunting big names.
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Post by hushnel on Aug 19, 2022 11:58:22 GMT -5
I didn’t have much use for College. I graduated HighSchool in 1971. I attended 4 different High-schools. Dad was in transition, ending his military career, moving into the private sector.
I had no clue what I wanted to do. Well sure a musician, but that was not on the parents list of viable careers. In this they may have been correct.
I just squeezed buy and graduated from High school. Dad had me applying to various in state collages and universities. The University of Pittsburgh had a program where I would attend a Satellite campus and carry 9 credits, just two weeks after graduation, if I carried a C average I would be admitted. I actually did much better than a C, I managed 4.0.
I transferred to the main campus. It was cool, the culture was influential and I found it entertaining. Dad took a Miami job. The cost of the University of Pittsburgh without the resident discount was more than dad could afford. He asked me to find a Florida School. I went to the University of Florida. The party school culture was my demise, not having a focus or any scholastic focus, I didn’t last long and flunked out in the first year. That’s all on me.
If I was able to finish at the U of Pitt I probably would of figured out a path. Like I said it’s culture was education first.
I always had a job, some better than others. Occasionally two jobs and an average of three gigs a week in Coconut Grove. A buddy that lived in the same trailer park got me an interview with his boss. I got hired as a Union Carpenter. I feel and broke my back, ended that job.
This part here is were I’m heading in this conversation. Workmans Comp had me go to a rehab for a week of testing. To find a career with similar pay. This week of testing is designed to determine intelligence, work ethic, strengths and types of skills, interests, problem solving, etc. At the end of this week I was given a number that would indicated jobs I’d qualify for, this, so the workman's comp insurance could authorize my re-education for my next career.
This is genius, it should be done in the public school system in 11th or 12th grade. Give the kids an opportunity to see what is available for career options for them. In my case It included biomedical Engineering, the hospital offered me the job.
I never got a certificate for electronics, I was required to but it didn’t pan out that way. The Community Collage instructor was a joke. I’m dyslexic, one of my techniques is to consume the whole text of a subject, twice, once to get it all in, the second to attach all the possible connections, I had a question, the teacher looked through the book but had no answer. Told the boss he was welcome to test me any time, I read the book, the teacher was a poser.
I had the job for 30 years and retired at the age of 59.
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Post by Think Floyd on Aug 19, 2022 14:16:02 GMT -5
I could make some real trouble here by detailing some of the kids of famous types who got into schools their parents went to even though they were pretty bad students. And then they went on to so-called leadership positions in the public domain. I'll leave it there... Years ago, I read a book titled "The Power Elite" which touches on and expands upon this subject. It was very interesting, informative, and IMO not surprising at all!
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Post by Think Floyd on Aug 19, 2022 14:55:29 GMT -5
Yes, it is fraud because certain schools keep the bar high on admissions. The hilarious thing about parents 'buying' their under-achieving kids into a prestigious school is this--and nobody's talking about it at all: the dumb kid gets into school and doesn't flunk out. I think this is more of a news story than the bribery aspect because it reveals the truth about the standard of learning that occurs at these over-priced institutions. On a related note, I have an "often deemed unpopular by athletes and their parents" opinion about sports scholarships. How many High School athletes are given college scholarships just because they can play a sport but would never academically qualify for college if they didn't play that sport? Some of these kids are dumb, yet still graduate with a degree that they didn't earn just because they're a good football (for example) player. IMO, if you don't have the grades to earn a spot in college, you shouldn't be given the scholarship. But, certain sports programs are big money for the colleges, so they make sure that students who wouldn't qualify for admission if they weren't athletes get passing grades. IMO, this a a bigger fraud and crime than rich parents who pay to have their child admitted and then pay tuition. I believe that society would be better off if a poor kid who wants to be a teacher or medical professional is given a free ride through college rather than a poor kid who plays football or basketball.
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matryx81
Wholenote
I think I know the reason but I can't spell it.
Posts: 763
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Post by matryx81 on Aug 19, 2022 19:36:03 GMT -5
But, certain sports programs are big money for the colleges, so they make sure that students who wouldn't qualify for admission if they weren't athletes get passing grades. IMO, this a a bigger fraud and crime than rich parents who pay to have their child admitted and then pay tuition. THAT is the dirty little secret most do not wish to discuss.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Aug 19, 2022 19:57:39 GMT -5
But, certain sports programs are big money for the colleges, so they make sure that students who wouldn't qualify for admission if they weren't athletes get passing grades. IMO, this a a bigger fraud and crime than rich parents who pay to have their child admitted and then pay tuition. THAT is the dirty little secret most do not wish to discuss. I’m not so sure that’s a secret.
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matryx81
Wholenote
I think I know the reason but I can't spell it.
Posts: 763
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Post by matryx81 on Aug 19, 2022 20:37:23 GMT -5
I don't think it is, but there may still be people who cheer for a college's team while holding steadfast to the integrity of academia at the collegiate level (or worse yet, the integrity of the "game").
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Post by FlyonNylon on Aug 19, 2022 22:20:13 GMT -5
I did the long, drawn-out school thing and personally feel student athletes probably do more for their schools than most academic types and are totally legit in most admissions and getting special tutoring/etc due to the physical demands of their programs and the lasting health effects.
In med school we had a cultural group who was known for having previous tests/etc which they guarded, shared and cheated from.. I always just viewed exams as a game where the goal was to know exactly what score you want to get and expend the exact effort required to get that result. The people who cheated were just losers, just like all the pseudo famous kids who have to lie on their applications and have their parents cheat for them. It’s not that hard; just be goal oriented and study. Like, this is modern America, literally the easiest chance you have to succeed out of any time as a human in history, if you need yo mama to carry out some elaborate fraud to get you into uni for appearances sake you’re just a basic loser.
Idk if it’s criminal but it’s kind of funny / pathetic.
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Post by tahitijack on Aug 20, 2022 11:43:42 GMT -5
I've always thought it was a scam for university professors to require their books for their course. The latest scam is students purchase a password protected ebook for $750 and at the end of the semester access to the book goes away. And this is from a professor that is being paid very well, thank you very much. No wonder it costs a fortune to attend college today.
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Post by K4 on Aug 20, 2022 14:10:27 GMT -5
The latest scam is students purchase a password protected ebook for $750 and at the end of the semester access to the book goes away. That it a total rip off of the student. There should be a way to use it as reference even after class is over or you should get a refund.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Aug 22, 2022 6:34:05 GMT -5
Yes, it is fraud because certain schools keep the bar high on admissions. The hilarious thing about parents 'buying' their under-achieving kids into a prestigious school is this--and nobody's talking about it at all: the dumb kid gets into school and doesn't flunk out. I think this is more of a news story than the bribery aspect because it reveals the truth about the standard of learning that occurs at these over-priced institutions. On a related note, I have an "often deemed unpopular by athletes and their parents" opinion about sports scholarships. How many High School athletes are given college scholarships just because they can play a sport but would never academically qualify for college if they didn't play that sport? Some of these kids are dumb, yet still graduate with a degree that they didn't earn just because they're a good football (for example) player. IMO, if you don't have the grades to earn a spot in college, you shouldn't be given the scholarship. But, certain sports programs are big money for the colleges, so they make sure that students who wouldn't qualify for admission if they weren't athletes get passing grades. IMO, this a a bigger fraud and crime than rich parents who pay to have their child admitted and then pay tuition. I believe that society would be better off if a poor kid who wants to be a teacher or medical professional is given a free ride through college rather than a poor kid who plays football or basketball. There are definitely a lot of schools where academic standards...and even attending class....are not a factor for athletes. There are a lot that will allow incrementally lower standards for admission, but then expect the athletes to actually be students. There are some that hold the same standards across the board. There is some correlation between having low/no academic expectations and success at the schools. UNC in basketball with the whole scandal where the basketball players were not required to attend class. tOSU, where their star QB said "We ain't come here to play school." One can figure out who's bending the rules and who isn't pretty easily as it's hard to consistently compete with cheaters.
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WireDog
Wholenote
Posts: 298
Age: 68
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Post by WireDog on Aug 23, 2022 6:43:54 GMT -5
My college story was one of disappointment. Most was self-inflicted because I chose to be an Art Major, a classic recipe for disaster.
My father was a successful freelance artist in New Orleans. His success was that people loved his art and he always had work. His artwork was great, but financially we were in poverty. My folks divorced over that, and that hurt.
Having a real ability and hunger to pursue art since I could crawl, I went that route anyway, infuriating my Ma and Grandfather. I haD good grades and got into a State University on an academic scholarship. Having spent summers working in my Dad’s art studio, I was on fire. But in 1972 the Art world was dominated by the Abstract Art movement, and I had professors who literally flung paint at the canvas while in a Zenlike state. Only a few were able to draw a representational human or animal figure.
I made a big splash with the tiny “representational art” faction. Meanwhile, I got no money from home due to my choice to be an artist. My Dad was dirt poor. So I dropped out after scraping for two years. Comparing the weak tea I was getting in college to my Dad’s working studio, I dropped out and moved back to New Orleans to work for him.
Six or seven years of trying to make it, and failing, led me to an Army Recruiter, a wife, kids, and happiness.
I returned to college, on fire, in 2009. It was a dismal boor, but I graduated with degree to teach art in public school.
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