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Post by Larry Madsen on Aug 7, 2020 19:11:56 GMT -5
Both of my Amps have spring reverb on them. Can anyone talk me through the difference? Is there a discernable or useful difference? Or is it something one would just have to hear for themselves? I invite your thoughts.  |
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Post by pcalu on Aug 7, 2020 19:37:02 GMT -5
With guitar amps... There are a couple of different types Reverb. I. Spring (the classic Fender) II. Hall (self-explanatory) III. Plate: (used originally in the studio) II. & III. In reference to guitar are of a digital construct. I. Spring Reverb
I.A Tube driven reverb. Tubes in the pre and post function.... driving the signal through the reverb pan
I.B Solid state: Op amps (Mosfet transistors etc) act as tubes in the PRE and post function.... driving the signal through the reverb pan
I.C Total digital... no reverb pan ... all digital modulation
IMO... For surf music or music genre where you need juicy liquid reverb that drips, all tube is preferred. Provided the Amp maker used quality Op amp transistors, a decent circuit design and a decent reverb pan, IMO ... If you're using Reverb in a post surf genre, there is little difference between Tube driven and Op amp/solid state... both merge with the dry signal of the amp. I'm of the opinion that it's all preference with tubes vs Opamps. I have a 1960s FR1000 Op amp solid state reverb unit that performs stellar (it's just as good as the reverb on my vintage Pro and Twin) IMO FMIC does the Solid State reverb thing extremely well on the modern PCB amps, HUGE bang for your buck on the base entry lines and up. (I've always had  ? when I've read critiques of Fender's reverb with Blues Jr's and HRD's that's some decent Reverb vs $$/price point of the amp. & Of course Fender does the tube reverb really well (they wrote the book on that) Some boutique builders have really made their mark in Reverb... Magnatone is a company that prides themselves on their Reverb. (Absolutely beautiful Reverb on all thier amps (I'm sure there are other boutiques that do a great Reverb)
Hall and Plate ... all digital all modulation (other than SS & profiling amps, I've never experienced a tube powered amp having a digital reverb... Normally digital is reserved for pedals. In which... I hear a difference when the digital pedal is trying to mimic spring reverb.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Aug 7, 2020 20:21:24 GMT -5
I've never experienced a tube powered amp having a digital reverb... Normally digital is reserved for pedals. And I'm certain you know far more about this than I. I guess that's why I ask the question. What I have are two tube amps with spring reverb. Even my question did not take all the questions into account.  thanks for the response  |
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Post by windmill on Aug 7, 2020 21:35:13 GMT -5
so what amps are they ?
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Post by Larry Madsen on Aug 8, 2020 7:18:49 GMT -5
I have a Carvin X100B and a Fender Blues Deluxe RI. I've been looking at some additional prospects for the music room and realize they don't all have the spring reverb I am accustom to. I've done a little scooting around YouTube for some comparisons and it does seem there is a difference. I have more trust in the perspective of this group of players than I do in the average YouTube comparison video producer. pcalu made it clear to me that there is quite a bit more going on with reverb construction than I knew or had taken into account One of the amps I am looking forward to adding to the music room is a VOX AC30 which has reverb, but not spring reverb ... based on what I am seeing. |
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twangmeister
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Post by twangmeister on Aug 8, 2020 21:45:49 GMT -5
I am a fan of the Boss '63 Reverb pedal. It can get way more drippy than a long pan reverb in a Fender amp.
How does it compare to a real outboard Fender reverb unit? It has been over 50 years since I heard one, but the Boss unit sounds pretty good to me. No *sproing-crash* if you kick it though.
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Post by pcalu on Aug 8, 2020 22:05:08 GMT -5
One of the amps I am looking forward to adding to the music room is a VOX AC30 which has reverb, but not spring reverb ... based on what I am seeing. I can't find the latest AC30c2x schematic ... but the AC30cc2x (don't know if that is a different model) has a modern solid state Reverb set up. I.e two LND150N3-G MOSFET 500V transistors. One sends the signal through the 3 spring reverb pan, and the other LND150n3-G captures the signal and pushes it along. Both Mosfet transistors act as a signal boost with no tone coloration what so ever. Basically the signal splits. Dry signal proceeds to the power tubes, Wet signal moves through the reverb pan then merges with the dry signal before the power tubes.
Good? Bad?
Basically IMO ... it's up to the beholder.
Myself, I just use a splash of Reverb when I play and because of that... I like both solid state and tube equally.
If you are into heavy overdrive your going to use very little reverb, can't imagine a metal guy getting caught up on Tube vs Solid State reverb.
Modulation reverb, like everything else has come a long way. I wouldn't get caught up on what type... If it sounds good in conjunction with the music you like to play, IMO it's a done deal.
As far as Modern amps with PCBs, looking at the schematic of the AC30cc2x. For what it's worth... my 2 cents... It looks easy to work on and looks to have the current mass production "best practices" (power tubes mounted to the chases with a heat shield in between them and the PCB.) Other than that I can't say much. The thing with British AC Top boost tone stacks... it's hard to find an amp that has modern function like a master volume, reverb, effects loop etc. Most boutique clones are great hand wired clones, but lack those modern functions. Looks like Vox has those covered in their C2x.. hence, a decent amp if its made right
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Aug 8, 2020 23:04:29 GMT -5
Ideally, reverb copies the sound of the 'space' in a room: all of the echoes of sound from the speaker bounce around in that space, and those echoed delays all moosh together into a wash of sound. Natural reverb is actually multiple delays stacked atop each other.
Spring reverb is a mechanical device made of two transducers and a spring. In its basic form it's a speaker's voice coil connected to one end of the spring--the other end of which is connected to the voice coil of a microphone. Energy imparted to the spring travels down the spring and is picked up at the other end and amplified. Since the spring is under tension, it vibrates and decays like natural reverb of a room. The thing about spring reverb is it's only an approximation of what natural room reverb sounds like. But it has a certain tonal flavor that has become *the* sound of surf and spy music. Spring reverb has an artifact on the note attack that I call "poink" that you hear especially when you pluck a muted string. It makes the characteristic poink sound you hear in all those classic surf tunes.
A spring reverb also 'crashes'. If you've ever kicked an amp with spring reverb, you've heard that thunder-like crash sound. Some bands have put that effect to good use on recordings. If you play in a punk band, this is an essential skill!
An even earlier mechanical reverb is the oil can reverb. This is a tube unit containing a small steel can filled with oil and metal plates with transducers in it; the oil vibrates similarly to springs and that creates the little delays that add up to reverb. This type sounds quite artificial.
Digital delays were originally designed to model various spaces (small room, large room, hall, arena, etc.). These models take into consideration the EQ profile of surfaces within these typical spaces and recreate the flavor of the tone as the reflected reverb decays. Bright rooms have pronoinced highs. Open-air stadiums have pronounced lows in the reverb decay. And recently, some digital reverbs emulate springs by adding that poink tone on the attack. A few do it convincingly, but most sound fake. And one or two makers have even programmed a crash sound if you kick the pedal. Wacky!
You really should try several digital units and make your own decision because personal preferences swing wildly. I ove the tone os a great spring reverb; like you, I have a Carvin X100B head and the spring reverb on that amp is fantastic; they did a great job EQing it. I have a 1060 Ampeg Reverberocket, and that has the best sounding reverb of any of my amps, including the Fender Princeton Reverb.
But I also have a few digital reverbs. A rack-mount Alesis Quadraverb, which is programmable and sounds amazing for use on vocals and percussion when recording. Same for the Alesis MIDIverb. And a few reverb pedals; the Line 6 Verbzilla pedal is especially cool because it takes reverb to places you never thought possible. Check out the reviews on YooToob.
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Bopper
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Post by Bopper on Aug 9, 2020 11:04:05 GMT -5
an artifact on the note attack that I call "poink" that you hear especially when you pluck a muted string
Got yer poink right here...
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Aug 9, 2020 12:20:03 GMT -5
My Princeton Reverb II came equipped with a short tank and the spring reverb was "meh" at best. Once I fitted the amp with a long tank I'd put the reverb in Deluxe territory. I am not a strict adherent to spring reverb and never found a pedal that I felt did a good job with it. With the multi-function pedals I always have preferred the hall setting. Probably because the vast amount of my musical endeavors are recording and I always record dry and add studio grade stereo verb in the mix.
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Post by Leftee on Aug 9, 2020 12:26:08 GMT -5
Some of the old Gibson amps did poink naturally. Like the old Lancer.
It is an acquired taste. Kinda like poo on a stick.
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Davywhizz
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Post by Davywhizz on Aug 9, 2020 12:53:58 GMT -5
I have an Egnater Rebel 30 (all tube/valve) which has digital reverb. It sounds great (the reviews seem to confirm that) and you can assign different amounts of it to each channel. I've had various amps with spring reverb tanks, including Peavey, Fender, Mesa Boogie and most recently a Tech 21 Trademark 60. I had a few problems with that one: the reverb stopped working twice, which seemed to be due to the tank connections oxidising, so easily fixed. It sounded fine, but I think I prefer longer tanks, which obviously means bigger amps. I'm happy either way, digital or springs.
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Post by archiestone on May 26, 2021 13:17:30 GMT -5
Having used Fender spring reverbs for a long time and having acquired a Tweed Champ with no reverb I set out to find a decent pedal to add some wetness. I ended up with a TC Electronic Arena Reverb (essentially the same as TC's vaunted 'Hall of Fame') and must admit it is a revelation; Multiple presets, FX level (blend of dry & wet signal), decay length, and tone controls allow for serious tweaking from tight, vintage surfy sounds to spacious, ambient wash - all quite usable.
I thought I knew from reverb but this thing adds DIMENSION to what you can do, plus it's seriously fun to play with.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on May 27, 2021 1:55:59 GMT -5
It’s worth noting that the reverb tanks which get used in guitar amps are cheap electromechanical assemblies, several units of the same model reference from the same manufacturer can sound noticeably different to each other.
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DrKev
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Post by DrKev on May 27, 2021 10:28:19 GMT -5
To my mind there are two types of spring reverb (even though they are the same basic thing, because the standard circuit designs produce different results).
First is the "outboard" spring reverb, like the Fender '63 ReIssue unit (also know by the Fender ciruit designation of 6G15). It is bright and splashy, even aggressive. Reverb decay tends to be on the short short. As it is an outboard unit it is usually run in front of an amplifier. If you are Dick Dale, that's a distorted amplifier too which adds grit and compression to the effect, enhancing the wet/dry ratio and decay length.
The second type is the onboard amp reverb usually styled after the blackface fender amps from the mid 60s. As this was originally built in to amplifier that could get farty when pushed hard, low and high pass filtering in the circuit keeps the sound from getting out of control or feeding back. As a result it is a darker sounding effect than the 6G15 style units. This usually has longer decay than the 6G15-type units
In both cases the drip or "ploink" is present but more noticeable on the outboard units, even annoyingly intrusive at times. That drip is due a thing called "dispersion" in which different frequencies travel at different speeds, in this case, the low frequencies arrive first and the higher frequencies arrive later. Say "ploink" slowly and listen and you'll hear what I mean.
The drip is very difficult to model accurately in digital systems and even in 2021, very few effects units do it to the satisfaction of anyone who knows what it should really sound like.
As pdf64 points out, different 'tanks' from different manufacturers sound a little different from each other. To my mind there is no one definitive sound, just multiple variations on one of the two above themes.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2021 17:30:16 GMT -5
After seeing this video, I choose plate. Not too practical when you see the setup in this studio
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Post by rdr on May 27, 2021 17:34:19 GMT -5
I'll second the Boss Fender reverb pedal, to my ears it is about as good as the reverb on my fender amps.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on May 27, 2021 19:06:56 GMT -5
... different 'tanks' from different manufacturers sound a little different from each other ... I was thinking of different examples of the same tank model from the same manufacturer. |
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Post by reverendrob on May 28, 2021 14:15:26 GMT -5
Spring is essential for surf (whether real or simulated)
For other things, plate or room is generally preferable.
I'd rather have a good plate simulator in my guitar amps, but...that's why I have outboard gear.
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Post by reverendrob on May 28, 2021 14:18:54 GMT -5
I'll second the Boss Fender reverb pedal, to my ears it is about as good as the reverb on my fender amps. It killed my jonesing for a reala outboard tank. It's miles better than the onboard tank (which isn't as deep or surfy as an outboard tank) on any Fender amp I've ever owned. |
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Post by bluzcat on May 29, 2021 14:38:50 GMT -5
I'll second the Boss Fender reverb pedal, to my ears it is about as good as the reverb on my fender amps. These have gotten pretty expensive on the used market. |
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Post by Larry Madsen on May 29, 2021 17:22:16 GMT -5
I'll second the Boss Fender reverb pedal Appears to be two versions out there. A "63" and a "65". Might one be more desirable than the other? These have gotten pretty expensive on the used market. They seem to be going for between $200.00 and $300.00 |
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Post by rdr on May 29, 2021 21:14:37 GMT -5
My Boss Reverb pedal is a 63. Didn't know about a 65.
Off subject, but I also have a Boss 59 Bassman pedal that I haven't messed with much. It certainly has a lot of controls. And I suppose is tweedee. I'll have to pull it out.
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Post by reverendrob on May 29, 2021 22:19:18 GMT -5
My Boss Reverb pedal is a 63. Didn't know about a 65. The '65 is an amp simp pedal, it's like the Bassman one. |
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? when I've read critiques of Fender's reverb with Blues Jr's and HRD's that's some decent Reverb vs $$/price point of the amp. & Of course Fender does the tube reverb really well (they wrote the book on that) Some boutique builders have really made their mark in Reverb... Magnatone is a company that prides themselves on their Reverb. (Absolutely beautiful Reverb on all thier amps (I'm sure there are other boutiques that do a great Reverb) 
