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Post by Larry Madsen on Sept 3, 2020 18:25:23 GMT -5
This is the nut on an Epiphone Les Paul Standard I purchased a couple of years ago. The string height at the nut has been high from the beginning. I have cut a couple of the slots getting the high B and E strings down quite nicely. I could go a bit lower with them, but I also know of the mistakes I have made in the past by going too low and having regrets ... I'm not going any deeper on those until I get the remaining strings down to a better place. DSC_2280 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr You can see on this nut the strings are way down deep in the slots. I have always been of the impression that we want the strings about half way down in a slot. Something closer to this PIC below. nutslot4 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Might I get some basic guidance from those more talented than myself on this?
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 314
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Post by sirWheat on Sept 4, 2020 6:52:06 GMT -5
Really not a big deal if there isn't any pinching going on. That said, I like to make mine like the picture. You may wanna let the plain strings sit lower in the nut if you like to bend or are generally heavy-handed.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 4, 2020 9:34:28 GMT -5
^^^This. When I do nut slots, I get the wound strings about halfway in the slot and the plain strings about 80% in the slot. Here's pics of Strat and Gibson nuts after I've replaced 'em: It is a finesse thing; once you get close, you make one light pass with the file and check string depth. Not deep enough? Only one light pass with the file and check depth. It is soooooo easy to take one stroke too much and blow the nut slot too low. I still do it every so often. The hardest part of nut making is remaining patient and taking your time throughout the operation. Get in a hurry and you'll mess it up.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 4, 2020 9:46:06 GMT -5
Stooge Mac sells a tool that you clamp over the fingerboard in front of the nut that holds steel shims in place. These are designed to serve as a guide for getting the nut slots perfectly set to the depth you want. And this tool works! But I would never use it because it has One huge Problem: you file until your nut file contacts the shim.
Running a nut file against steel will kill a nut file's cutting edge. A decent set of nut files costs more than $100. Why in hell would I run a nut file against steel? That is insane to my way of thinking.
The way I do it is I get the guitar's setup dialed in (neck relief and action at the 12th fret). Then I start dropping the nut slots until each string is between .018" and .020" off the first fret. Then I recheck neck relief and string action at the 12th fret and make adjustments.
Then I recheck string action over the 1st fret. When that is dialed in, that's when I slack the strings and carefully plane off the top of the nut, checking as I go.
To summarize: the idea here is not to file the slots so a wound string is halfway in a slot. The goal is to get all the strings' action over the first fret perfect, and then remove material from the top off the nut to reveal the wound strings by 50% and the plain strings by 80% to 100% in each of their slots.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 405
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Post by DrKev on Sept 4, 2020 14:35:29 GMT -5
The height of the nut above the strings has zero effect on the performance of the nut, only the parts in contact with the strings can do that. But, once you get used to doing as Peegoo describes, and smooth and gently rounded the edges, you'll want it like that forever! It looks good and feels good. (Unnecessary tall nuts with sharp edges are the fastest way to turn me into the shouty old man). Personally I just go to the top of the strings and don't feel the need to go any lower. Larry, what you've done already looks fine to me. Feel free to leave it there if you like.
For the slots, I do something similar to the stew mac thing but with feeler gauges held in place with elastic hair band, and a layer of masking tape on the top gauge. I'll file the slot down until I just start to hit the tape. Then I know I'm within a hair of the height I like but without risking damage to the file. If I can keep the old strings on, I'll take the excess off the top of the nut with a small flat file till I hit the strings, matching the fretboard radius as much as possible. Then install the new strings, finish the slots, and then finish the top with a quick sand and polish with micro mesh.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Sept 4, 2020 16:29:43 GMT -5
I really struggle with the string height/slot depth and have done several now that turned out really good...by accident. An old friend/bandmate (RIP) once told me the secret to his builds was cutting the nuts lower than spec. I've actually done this not on purpose and it turned out working really well on that specific guitar(vintage frets/radius), but not so on another. I have a hard time visualizing such small increments in measurement no matter how much care I take. My latest was *just about there* and then I think I cut the D string a bit too low. Drats!
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Post by Larry Madsen on Sept 4, 2020 19:03:08 GMT -5
The goal is to get all the strings' action over the first fret perfect, and then remove material from the top off the nut to reveal the wound strings by 50% and the plain strings by 80% to 100% in each of their slots. Yes I understand that it will be "plaining" the top down to the desired level after the slots are correct. I have cut a couple of nuts from 1/4" brass stock about 20 years ago ... PIC below DSC_2290 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr DSC_2297 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr On these I had no nut files. I used an odd-ball set of mini files. I got them cut and they work well, but not very pretty. Now I have nut files, so I'd like to get a lot better at cutting nuts. DSC_2288 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I'll follow the advice of getting all the slots set right where I want them before I attempt drop the height of the top of the nut. Question, How do these nut files work on brass? Will they load up on material that is difficult to clear from the abrasive edge of the file?
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Post by Larry Madsen on Sept 4, 2020 19:57:48 GMT -5
Stooge Mac sells a tool that you clamp over the fingerboard in front of the nut that holds steel shims in place. The idea of pressing a layer or two of tape (maybe masking tape) tightly onto that first fret and using it as an "alarm" so you know when you are getting close and can stop. Leaves you knowing the thickness of the tape is still there as your safe space above the actual fret. (Can we talk about "safe spaces" here?
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 4, 2020 21:32:14 GMT -5
Yep--those nut files will safely cut brass. Have a file card laying face up as you work and occasionally swipe the fuile sideways over it. That will keep the file's teeth free of chips and cutting smoothly.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 4, 2020 23:13:00 GMT -5
If you have nut files, take each of the two leading edges (the corners on the end) to a smooth emery wheel and grind a nice smooth little radius on the corners. Follow with some 600-grit paper to polish the ground corner smooth.
I have lost count of the number of guitars I've worked on that came in with gouges in the face of the headstock from careless use of a nut file.
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Post by Leftee on Sept 5, 2020 6:53:15 GMT -5
If you have nut files, take each of the two leading edges (the corners on the end) to a smooth emery wheel and grind a nice smooth little radius on the corners. Follow with some 600-grit paper to polish the ground corner smooth. I have lost count of the number of guitars I've worked on that came in with gouges in the face of the headstock from careless use of a nut file. Great point. I haven’t committed this mistake... yet.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Sept 6, 2020 14:18:58 GMT -5
Are we talking slot height, or the overall height of the nut? The slot height should be determined in the setup for playability, and then the top profile adjusted after. To cut the slots to a depth based on where the top profile lies is just arbitrary.
The amount of extra material shown in the pictures works well. A bit extra doesn't hurt anything. In my experience it doesn't get wonky with tuning until the slots are so buried that the file doesn't run through smoothly. I've made nuts and cut the top profile down and looked at what is down at the bottom, and it does get weird. I always leave the last couple passes for when the top profile is better adjusted.
A good way to get the top profile down without removing the nut is to have some sand paper stuck to a stick, and just sand it down. If you leave old strings on there (you're going to have to change them after this) they can be a quick visual for how deep you're going. Do your major cutting with a coarse grit, leaving extra material for the polishing process. Then with the strings off, work your way up through the grits to get rid of scratches. If you want it shiny again, use a fingernail buffer, available at most/all grocery stores and pharmacies.
Regarding string height, here's what I do: make sure the neck is straight. If you're unsure of the final location, err on the side of too straight/back bowed. Think of it as cutting on the waste side of a line. The ultimate test is the buzz test. Play the string very hard open, then very hard at the first fret. You want it to buzz on both, but you want the first fret to buzz more than the open string. Like one of the pictures, the best position of a nut slot is slightly higher than a fret would be; after all, if you capo on the 3rd fret, the fret becomes your "nut", and it is (in theory) the same height as the other frets. You want a nut slightly higher because people dig in more with open strings and like them cleaner. There is some small room for adjusting for taste in this regard. I will check visually by pressing the string between the 2nd and 3rd frets and looking at the space above the first fret. I can't quantify what I see, but you get used to knowing what you want to see after a while.
If you're starting with brand new strings, give them a hard press right next to the nut a few times to make sure they're bending over the nut all the way. New strings will sort of arc above the nut until they break in, so a brand new string will actually sit a very small amount higher. It is very small, but it sometimes is the culprit when we over cut.
Another way people over cut very quickly is by cutting the slot at too dramatic of an angle back. That leaves the string balancing on a pretty sharp point at the front of the nut slot. That point is very brittle and comes down very quickly when you give it another tap with the file or hit it with sand paper. There are some manufacturers that are notorious for this. I avoid this by keeping an eye on the tuning post. You want to keep the front of that file pointing at the tuner, then rolling the back down a little bit. There is no need to make it fall off like the side of a cliff.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Sept 6, 2020 16:39:54 GMT -5
Are we talking slot height, or the overall height of the nut Well since you put it that way We are talking about slot height above the strings.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Sept 6, 2020 16:49:42 GMT -5
Another way people over cut very quickly is by cutting the slot at too dramatic of an angle back. That leaves the string balancing on a pretty sharp point at the front of the nut slot. This is a mistake I have made in the past. Too much slope to the rear leaving a rather sharp edge up top at the front. Even loading strings and tuning can quickly level that sharp (top/front) edge down and create too deep of a cut on the nut. The page I hijacked that PIC from discusses a method of correcting the mistake by dropping in a new piece of nut material. www.lutherie.net/nuts.html
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 405
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Post by DrKev on Sept 7, 2020 5:51:42 GMT -5
Another way people over cut very quickly is by cutting the slot at too dramatic of an angle back. (snip) I avoid this by keeping an eye on the tuning post. You want to keep the front of that file pointing at the tuner, then rolling the back down a little bit. There is no need to make it fall off like the side of a cliff. Yes. There is no benefit to sloping any portion of the slot below the angle the installed string will make back to the tuner post. The G and D string can be the tricky ones because the angles are quite shallow and too shallow can produce sitar-like weirdness. For these strings I go half way between that maximum downward angle and no angle at all and I find it works out fine. I'll aim for the middle to top half of tuning post. That ensures a clean edge with sufficient angle right at the front of the nut, full support of the string along the full length of the slot, and an equal break angle on both sides. I'll use thumb and index finger of my left hand behind the nut to support the file from the bottom so it maintains that angle as I file.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Sept 21, 2020 19:49:41 GMT -5
Getting better. Eliminated all that nut towering above the strings. DSC_2318 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Still need to do some polishing the surface and shaping the curve to the peg head, but close. The action was high over-all on this guitar. I don't want to go any deeper on the slots. I'll be lowering the bridge a bit next to see what I have then.
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Post by hushnel on Sept 27, 2020 12:25:54 GMT -5
Looks good.
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Post by LTB on Sept 27, 2020 16:23:41 GMT -5
Very nice! Can I ask you guy's something? (I know, I just did LOL ) Does it benefit tuning stability (especially on a guitar with tilted headstock and whammy bar) to angle the cut so the 4 inner strings angle toward the string posts to reduce binding? I saw a post that mentioned that a while back but hardly see anyone that does that?
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Post by hushnel on Sept 28, 2020 11:00:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I angle the string slots to be closer to parallel to the head stock. It seems to me that it would create a better break angle at the face of the nut. At the very least take some stress off the strings at the back of the nut.
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