|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 2, 2020 10:47:57 GMT -5
I figured I'd post this here since questions about irons come up, so it might make for a good discussion.
I've had a Weller W60P iron for years. It is just an iron (not a station), but it has temperature control via the tips, so you change the temperature when you change tips. They're more powerful than the typical regular soldering iron and are great for guitar work. The heater doesn't seem to be working. I will disassemble it today to see if there is an easy fix, but replacement parts are not cost effective, and a replacement iron is too much money - I can easily upgrade for the same about of cash. (Just under $100 to replace, $50 for new heater part, while the stations I'm looking at are around $100 each)
I am looking at the Weller WE1010NA and the Hakko fx-888d. It looks like the Hakko came out, gobbled up that price point, and Weller released their answer to it to try to reclaim market share. I'll put a link below to a pretty elaborate YouTube video comparing the two. They seem to be virtually identical in practical matters, except the Hakko will slightly beat out the Weller in a lot of small ways, but the Weller has a far superior interface. With guitar stuff I'm suspecting I will want to constantly change temperature, so that might be a win for the Weller. I might do circuit boards or pickup eyelets, or I might be soldering trem claws, or I might be pulling frets or steaming out dents. If I change temperature as often as I was changing tips before, I might go insane with the Hakko, but who knows.
The next step up from those is an iron style that has the heater integrated to the tip, which supposedly is much better for heat recovery. This is tempting since the heat sinking is the big enemy for bulky retro components like you find in guitars, but I'm not sure if it justifies the extra cost. The Hakko fx-951 would be the only one even close to my price range. Usually with guitar stuff you can get away with just upping the tip size and the temperature and you're fine. I imagine there are some scenarios where keeping low temperatures with a fine tip but not wanting any heat sinking to happen might be really important, but they'd be rare in guitar work - some stuff with enameled wire maybe, but even then I'm comfortable without those luxuries. Plus, my old iron had the heater at the base of a solid brass tip and it seemed to do okay except when doing really bulky stuff or sometimes when pulling frets, but the recovery time was usually pretty short.
I'm also considering after investing in a new station having a different set up for the non-electronic uses. That is, pulling frets and steaming dents. I've used the solder gun method before, but am not sure (nor can I find verification) that it is safe on 100% of instruments - I only find people saying "be careful" in some scenarios. Maybe I can buy a cheap box store iron that would work better for those applications? I'm not sure if I sped up the demise of my old iron by doing the non-electronic work on it or not. I certainly wouldn't mind having a bit of extra heat for pulling frets, either.
Thoughts anyone?
|
|
sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
|
Post by sirWheat on Dec 2, 2020 15:27:34 GMT -5
I have the precursor to the 888, the Hakko 936. I don't use it anywhere near as often as I'm sure you do but it has done very well for me for general guitar stuff and even some circuit board stuff. It's my first foray beyond traditional stick types so I can't compare to anything but recovery time is quite quick. There's a knock-off version of the 936 available for under forty bucks. Here's a comparison:
I'm an admitted tool junky/snob but there are certain times when I'm O.K. with not having the very best. The hundred bucks I spent on the 936 was fine for what I need but after watching the above video I'd have been fine with the knock-off.
As for dents and frets, seems like a cheap gun or used high-power stick would be fine, no?
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 2, 2020 17:17:18 GMT -5
For what it's worth I am perfectly happy with my Hakko.
I have three different interchangeable tips and that covers all my needs.
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 2, 2020 21:22:33 GMT -5
An update... I made another attempt to get my iron working, and it is dead. I pulled it apart hoping for something obvious and serviceable, tried what seemed obvious, but it just won't heat. I did notice that down in the heater part there were some broken pieces of ceramic. I did have a habit of using the side of the lower barrel for steaming dents, which is right where that heater and ceramic piece was, so maybe I killed it by doing that. The Yihua looks interesting. When I was reading reviews yesterday, I saw a lot about units dying way too early so I was staying away, but now I'm seeing better reviews, albeit not many that are head to head. The 939D+ seems to be the current model for $50. It looks like the gap between the element and tip is a bit excessive which hurts recovery time, but it is unclear if that is a current problem, and if it is a problem with the tip or the unit - if it is a problem with the tip, buying Hakko tips for the Yihua unit would work fine. As for dents and frets, seems like a cheap gun or used high-power stick would be fine, no? Yeah, probably. I'm just not sure how powerful I want to go. I've never played the "how hot is too hot" game before, but I do know my 60 watt iron with a 3/16" tip at 800 degrees tended to feel a bit under powered, but adequate. I have an 80 watt iron with a huge 10mm tip (older version of SP80NUS) that is meant for stained glass work that I use for pickup covers, amp chassis, and sometimes stubborn trem claws. It would be a bit unruly for frets, but if I can grind down the tip (or replace?) it might be okay. I'll keep an eye out for a cheap gun, for sure. I'm sure I'd end up using it for something. For what it's worth I am perfectly happy with my Hakko. Does yours have the digital interface with the two buttons? Does it make you grumpy, or did you get used to it? A couple of the reviews called it the "80s alarm clock interface". I thought that was pretty funny. Awaiting Peegoo, though I'm sure he'll just say "buy the Hakko and shut up". (attempted to leave a smiley, but apparently my colon key doesn't work. There's another broken thing to fix or replace this week...)
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 2, 2020 21:23:16 GMT -5
Also, after watching several YouTube reviews or soldering stations, I'm amazed how many people out there pronounced the "L" in "solder". I don't know what to believe anymore...
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 2, 2020 21:33:07 GMT -5
Mine is the analog version with the knob.
"Sodder" is how I pronounce it.
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 5, 2020 10:24:36 GMT -5
I'm probably irritating people at this point, but it might be useful for someone at some point, so who knows.
I found more videos down the rabbit hole comparing these models to the much higher quality kind with the heater integrated to the tip, and it looks like they will be of little or no use to me. Basically, they're only useful if you need to maintain a constant temperature when that temperature also needs to remain very low. With passive components that really isn't an issue. I wasn't really in the market for one of the fancier ones anyway, but I'm glad to know that the difference will likely never make any difference for me. The same guy as before -
The same guy also posted a couple videos about his Weller smoking up on him. It seems bad, but it was because he plugged a North American unit straight into 240v Australian power without the transformer by accident, and his beef is that there was no fuse. I'm in North America, so this won't happen. Someone in the comments also suggested that this sort of mistake would probably just arc a fuse anyway, so it lacking a mains fuse didn't contribute to the problem at all. It was also mentioned that we don't need mains fuses in NA nearly as much because or circuit breaker boxes are just as effective. It is a bit above my head, but as I mentioned I'm in in North America anyway so I'm not going to be plugging anything into 240v by accident.
I'll probably pull the trigger on something before Monday. This reminds me of people shopping for guitar pickups... they keep waiting for a clear winner, but they're all so similar and many are very good that they end up with a paralysis by analysis.
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 5, 2020 10:38:02 GMT -5
Well I'll say it again, I am very happy with the Hakko. It warms up quickly, it maintains the temperature I set it at, and the interchangeable tips make it very handy.
Actually I have two of them. In addition to the soldering station, I have the stick variety that has a little dial and four or five preset settings.
If you're just going to work on larger items like cap cans and warming up frets that might be a good choice, that's actually the one I use for stained glass.
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 5, 2020 11:24:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I suspect I'll just toss a coin on Sunday and pick one and be very happy with either one.
I do PCBs sometimes, but they're generally crude enough that I don't have to worry. Battery clips, preamps, maybe reflowing the occasional solder joint on a cheap piece, whatever. I'll do pickup leads and the magnet wire sometimes as well. I'm looking forward to controlling temperature for certain things like when the pickup leads are using 28ga or when the insulation on a shielded wire is so dainty that it melts through and shorts in an instant. Sure, if you're doing a from scratch build you can use good stuff, but when you're just swapping a jack on an Epiphone or something else, they can be annoying.
I saw those sticks, and they look great! When you price them out, you're awfully close to the price of a station, and that's why I'm where I'm at. This is assuming my Weller stand won't work well with a Hakko iron... I might be wrong on this.
I'm currently winning an eBay auction for a used Weller W100P which is the big brother to the one I had that just died, and hopefully that'll be perfect for frets, especially since my current bid is crazy low. I have two or three refrets in queue right now, so hopefully I get it in time. One has lots of binding and the other is a vintage piece (probably a Brazilian board, it is an appointment and I haven't seen it yet) so those will be really good tests.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 5, 2020 13:33:56 GMT -5
Hakko here. I like it because (1) it pumps tons of heat for its size, and (2) the stick goes into sleep mode when parked in the holder. This extends the life of the tips probably 10 times over the lifespan of my older Weller WLC100 station. It fully recovers from sleep between the time it's lifted from the holder and the time the tip is applied to the work. It is super fast and a joy to use. Justifying the relatively high cost of a Hakko is difficult...until you use one for a little while. It really speeds up the work process and it's effortless to use; the soft silicone cable is super flexible and does not affect handling like stiffer PVC jacketed cables.
I have a few 'dumb' 40-watt self-regulated sticks from Weller and Radio Shack that I use for other non-solder jobs. One has a tip that's been ground with a concave to fit over fret wire and heat it up.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 5, 2020 13:35:35 GMT -5
DP! Doh!
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 5, 2020 14:53:34 GMT -5
Which one do you have, Peegoo? The fx-888d doesn't seem to have any sleep settings.
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 5, 2020 15:46:10 GMT -5
It doesn't, but it's very easy to just switch it off.
It heats up that quickly.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 6, 2020 7:19:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 6, 2020 10:06:50 GMT -5
Ooooh, you're killing me! That's the one I want but can't justify the cost.
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 6, 2020 16:35:07 GMT -5
Alright. Enough waffling. Order submitted.
I bought -
Hakko fx888d package An array of tips A used Weller w100p off of ebay.
I was leaning towards the Hakko because even though the Weller seemed slightly better on paper it seemed like the users of the Hakko were far more in love with their setups than the Weller people. Maybe it is a Mac/Windows thing where the Apple people are fiercely loyal to a cultish degree while the Windows people thrive on blaming their tools for everything... who knows. Then, I checked prices this afternoon on Amazon, and the previously cheaper Weller went up by $24. I took that as a sign and pulled the trigger on the Hakko. The 951 like what Peegoo has looks like a great piece, but really hard for me to justify, as at most it would be a quality-of-life thing with no tangible change to the speed or quality of my work. I bought a bunch of replacement tips - more than I need because of the set that was available. I'll have a few sizes I didn't have before.
I've done some more research on optimal temperatures, and it looks like with my old iron I was going with higher temperature to compensate for poor recovery, so my guess right now is that I'll get more svelte, shiny joints by dropping the temperature a bit, and probably fewer headaches with burned wire insulation. This will be the nicest soldering iron I've ever had in my hands, so I'm also kinda hoping that after years of lower grade ones it'll be like taking off ankle weights and my solder technique will improve all around. I'll also be trying the brass wool cleaning method for the first time to see what the fuss is all about.
The used Weller is for the non-soldering stuff, mainly pulling frets. The w100p is the 100 watt big brother to my old one which just died, the w60p. The tips control the iron at the same temperature, but it is a higher wattage (duh) and also physically larger, so I'm guessing that it'll translate to better function. With my old iron, I found I had to pause every few frets to let the iron recover. If it doesn't work, then I'm only out about $23 after shipping. I have the non-regulated version, the 80 watt 10mm tip beast I call "Bertha", that gets so hot solder flux immediately toasts on the tip when it is fully heated - I have to unplug it periodically during use to keep it at a usable temperature. I'm not sure that is a wise choice for pulling frets, partly because of the power, but also because it is very front heavy and clumsy. Bertha gets used for humbucker covers (makes perfect joints!), and the occasional stubborn trem claw. They're cheap and I highly recommend having one on hand. I might pick up a solder gun at some point if I see one cheap, but with Covid I don't get out to the used shops and such nearly as often.
I'll report back on each of these as I receive them and have a chance to put them through some paces. I took the slowest shipping options on everything, so it'll be a while.
All of this time spent looking at soldering setups and scrolling through electronics forums makes me want to take on some DIY electronics projects! Hmmm, let's see....
|
|
sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
|
Post by sirWheat on Dec 6, 2020 19:05:34 GMT -5
Sounds reasonable. Situations like this are tough; you have enough experience and ability to appreciate the differences in the various levels of tools but choose pragmatically anyway. Good for you, I often go the other way.
I don't get all the hype about the brass wool thing. I have one but I always use the sponge anyway, seems to do a better job (visually anyway).
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 6, 2020 20:38:40 GMT -5
My best guess on the brass wool from what I've read is that it is most appreciated by the lead-free guys. The flux burns and is nastier on lead free and it is harder to keep the tip clean. Using the brass wool leaves just a little bit of solder on it and retinning isn't as much of a hassle. I'm yet to make the RoHS leap myself, though I have a co-worker that uses it. Maybe he'll like it.
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 6, 2020 21:21:47 GMT -5
A baby food jar stuffed with brass wool works well, as does a brass bristle brush.
But I gotta have a wet sponge too.
|
|
|
Post by Leftee on Dec 6, 2020 21:31:02 GMT -5
RE: The RoHS leap
I haven’t.
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 6, 2020 21:39:37 GMT -5
It's not much fun to work with.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 7, 2020 9:13:11 GMT -5
Lead-free sodder sucks. Using lead-free solder is like trying to spread peanut butter to toast that has already been buttered: you have to work a lot harder to get a good result. Ya done good! That Hakko is a good one. These things come with a little black silicone pad shaped like a ping-pong bat, and there used to be no clue in the instructions what it's for (dunno if they changed that). Use it like a pot holder to grip the hot tip when changing horses in midstream. The little 'handle' end on it is designed to attach to the stick's cable, but doing so makes it a lot harder to use. Leave it loose but keep it handy. I like the brass wool tip cleaner because that's what I've used for years. I switched from the wet sponge back when I was using self-regulated sticks; the water had a cooling effect on the tip and heat recovery was pretty slow. Brass wool doesn't sink the heat out like the wet sponge, and work was a lot faster that way. With modern sticks, the wet sponge is fine because heat recovery is super fast. This is the soldering stuff I use most often. That huge stick is not Hakko. It's a Craftsman (Weller-made, rebranded) from the 70s that I use when I need to beat an amp chassis into shape.
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 7, 2020 9:58:06 GMT -5
Stickzilla is even bigger than Bertha! You could probably just solder two amps together. That would sound amazing.
I have used RoHS before - a manufacturing job I had that was non-musical was RoHS, and I tried doing a simple audio circuit with a low wattage station, small tips and RoHS. I hated it. It is impossible to have a good glossy tip, the flux is super nasty, and all of your joints look cold even when they aren't. My co-worker goes through tips routinely, while with the leaded stuff a cared for, quality tip is a life time item. For a while I thought I was just missing something, but as I read about it online everyone in the electronics groups essentially say "RoHS sucks, if you can use leaded, use leaded" so I feel a bit more validated. There are fancier blends that use a bit of silver that people like, but it is probably a way to spend more money and still be inferior to leaded. My favorite bit was a video about proper iron care, and the guy said that if you're using RoHS, keep the leaded for tinning after use for care of the tip! That's gotta tell you something.
Doing repairs in North America I don't see any reason why I would have to change, and I'm a little fuzzy on what the health consequences of leaded are, anyway. I don't eat the stuff, and it doesn't really travel very far. It doesn't vaporize like some people think. I suspect the biggest danger would be in disposable consumer electronics it would mean a lot of lead sitting in landfills and other places ready to run off to water supplies. I'm more worried about the lead buckshot bags I use for fretting.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 7, 2020 10:18:25 GMT -5
Soldering with 60/40 lead solder is not even remotely dangerous from a lead poisoning standpoint. Soldering does not get the temperature high enough for lead to gas off into the air. There is more danger from lung irritation caused by rosin flux fumes, as well as burns to the hand. I found this pic (the left-side one, in its unannotated form of course) years ago on a Website for a company that sold soldering stuff: If you're handling solder and licking your fingers a lot...that's different It will introduce lead into your body. The reason lead in solder is bad is because it's not environmentally friendly; when electonic items are disposed of, the metals break down and find their way into ground water.
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 7, 2020 19:00:49 GMT -5
I love that picture. I've opened several cans of worms with all the research, and am yet to find good answers on a few other things. A couple I'm trying to find answers on - 60/40 vs. 63/37 leaded solder - The 63/37 has a narrower temperature window between solid and molten and spends less time in the "soft serve" state. Advocates insist this makes it far better (makes sense if you think the joint might get disturbed) but I'm not fully wrapping my head around why it might be any better if the joints are steady anyway. Water for sponges - Many, many sources say to use deionized water for your solder sponge. Some say it is for the life of the tip, including the manufacturers. I've never done anything except tap water so I have no idea how plausible this is. Deionized is expensive, and as far as I can tell, not available locally, though I might give distilled a try since I always have it handy, and the tap water in my area is hard enough to chip a tooth on. I wouldn't be opposed to buying some to try as I've been wanting to try it for some other non-electrical things, but am a bit skeptical. Google searches just give me a bunch of random opinions. If you're handling solder and licking your fingers a lot...that's different It will introduce lead into your body. This reminds me of something Norm MacDonald said. "Chess players are always looking down their noses at checkers players, they think they're so smart. But you know what? I don't care. I like playing checkers. Plus, the red ones are tasty."
|
|
|
Post by Pinetree on Dec 7, 2020 19:35:25 GMT -5
60/40, wet sponge, and tap water works for me.
But I don't know nothing.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 8, 2020 10:48:19 GMT -5
I'd be willing to bet you'll spend more $$$ on deionized water than you will on replacement tips.
Has anyone tried holy water? I'd bring some home but it would probably burn me worse than molten solder.
|
|
|
Post by modbus on Dec 8, 2020 12:35:43 GMT -5
It looks like this thread has run its course, but I'll throw in my $0.02. I have an older Weller that looks pretty similar to the Weller WE1010NA. While it is fantastic for putting on and pulling off SMT components on circuit boards, it really doesn't produce enough heat to effectively heat up a guitar pot or a humbucker cover. I've never had any luck with it in that regard.
Also, I have a few rolls of lead solder, as well as a roll of lead free solder with a good bit of silver in it. Given metal prices these days, I supposed I could use them as a means to fund and early retirement.
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 8, 2020 18:06:16 GMT -5
it really doesn't produce enough heat to effectively heat up a guitar pot or a humbucker cover. I've never had any luck with it in that regard. If you have a soldering stick that uses replaceable tips that thread into the handpiece, get yourself a small tube of thermally conductive paste (the white grease that goes between MOSFETs/LEDs/CPU chips and their heat sinks). It's inexpensive and a little tube will last a lifetime. Apply some TCP to the threads of the tip and thread it together snugly. It often noticeably improves the performance of this type of soldering stick, allowing it to pump more heat faster into a large sink like a pot or a pickup cover.
|
|
|
Post by modbus on Dec 8, 2020 19:18:12 GMT -5
I'll have to try that, but I do hate that paste, I end up getting everywhere whenever I use it. It's worse than silicone thread dope.
|
|