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Post by roly on Dec 13, 2020 4:56:00 GMT -5
Not fishing for compliments. I have been asked to have a go at a friends tracks, so here's the first rough of one of ten songs. First thing I did is retrack the drums, other parts are also on the retrack list. So.....I am now using a sub so it's quite likely that I don't have the bottom end right.....please offer opinions in that category. Next.....we have the "old ears" issue....sticking with the drums.....is the brass too proud or perhaps is the 10k area too proud? I need to fly out the horns and beat them up with Melodyne.....lucky me, I got a mono horn track with reverb, redoing the horns is not an option. Non drum opinions are also welcome, the solo can not be redone, the comping guitar is sloppy, to distorted (in my view) for the genre and is too wet.....that can be redone. So folks, don't pull any punches, I have broad shoulders and I am sure that opinions from everyone here will be helpful. cheers Roly soundcloud.com/user-230727602/crackhouse-dec-12-2020 |
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Post by ninworks on Dec 13, 2020 6:01:46 GMT -5
Okay, you asked so here it is. The balances are good. It's probably recorded that way but IMO there's too much reverb on the rhythm guitar as you stated. The timing issues with the guitar can be fixed if you want to spend the time doing it. I don't know what DAW you're using but any of them have some kind of audio quantization feature. Pro Tools calls it "Elastic Audio." I think they call it "Q-Range" in Logic and it's called "Warping" in Ableton. The distortion level of the guitar doesn't bother me nut that's a judgment call.
The bottom end sounds pretty good but it's a little heavy in the 60 - 80Hz range. If you're unsure of the low frequency content compare your track to a professional track(s) you like that has been mastered by a heavyweight mastering engineer for a major label. Using reference tracks is a good way to find your bearings with EQ and levels.
I only listened to it once but the intonation troubles with the horns are obvious. The EQ on them sounds fine to me but they are back in the mix so it's hard to tell. Again, reference material is your friend.
The mix could use a little more level. I'm not one of those guys that believes it has to be louder than everyone else but it's a bit low. I had to crank up my system quite a bit to be able to hear it well enough to make comments on the EQ's.
I have a plugin called "Magic A/B" by Sample Logic that allows me to install it on a master buss and load 9 different reference tracks into it that can be compared to my track in real time as it's playing. Unfortunately I don't think that plugin is still being offered. There may be others somewhere that will do something similar.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Dec 13, 2020 10:36:16 GMT -5
Its an oddball enough of a song that to me some of the discussed (reverb on guitar, horn pitch, etc.) kinda work. Listening through cans what stands out to me is the lead vocal lacks some presence and gets muddy at times. It could be the eq on the delay(?). Everything sound pretty centered except the backup vox and the drums feel kinda standoutish and at times wide for the mix. The kick pops pretty hard in my Sennheisers. Probably not a fair listen through headphones.
And may I add an aside. I post a lot of stuff here and in the grand scheme of things am probably fishing for compliments, lol. But I always welcome input of this nature and should probably state that with all my posts. Roly and others have offered me good info in the past regarding mixes, etc. Its nice to get this kind of feedback along with compliments.
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Post by roly on Dec 13, 2020 16:29:50 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts you guys.
So.....the overheads aren't too proud around 10K?
Haven't leaned into the lead vocal as that can be redone.
I wasn't concerned about the overall level as it's just a rough.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 14, 2020 0:17:04 GMT -5
Sounds pretty good. In addition to all the above...
A little more compression on the vocal mic to even out the transients and drop-outs. Push the voice a bit more when recording. After doing the stereo master mix, try normalizing the two-track and see if that helps balance things out.
I like the tune...it has a Zappa feel to it!
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Dec 14, 2020 11:17:13 GMT -5
Nothing stood out for me in the 10k range, but maybe that's because my tinnitus was canceling it out. These days I find myself relying more and more on spectrum analysis and putting de-esser plugs on vox as a default.
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Post by roly on Dec 16, 2020 1:59:51 GMT -5
Hi folks Thanks for your help. 50Hz 2dB lift on kik removed. BG VOX down 2dB Wide cue lift on lead vox 2dB 3K center. No change in compression. Horns up 2 dB Didn't touch the low end on the bass or floor tom.....If you still think there's a lump in that 60 area that's likely why it's still present. A couple bass overdubs still need some level management. Horns still not tuned. Again....be brutal. cheers Roly soundcloud.com/user-230727602/crackhouse-dec-15 |
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Post by roly on Dec 16, 2020 2:08:59 GMT -5
PS
Larry knows that I'm a big fan of 5 9 13 on bass.
:>)
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Dec 16, 2020 12:53:31 GMT -5
This song is growing on me  Mix sounds good in the cans, great bass performance.
Roly is the "5 9 13" reference to your contrib years back on my "Rats in the Attic" track? Do you know, I dropped the punch line in you suggested and left it there! I need to credit you (Roly, bass @ 2:56 to 3:27).
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Post by roly on Dec 16, 2020 14:18:52 GMT -5
Hi Larry
Yup, it was "Rats".
That's my bass on Crackhouse.....not me playing but I did suggest the harmonics, the four note rake early in the song and the 5 9 13 at the end that goes up a half step.
cheers
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Post by ninworks on Dec 17, 2020 9:31:21 GMT -5
The bottom end sounds much better. Still had to crank my system a lot to bring the overall level up to hear the bottom end EQ well enough to comment. Other than the guitar verb and horn intonation it sounds good.
Other than the addition of the horns later, the mix is pretty one-dimensional. There's not a lot of wide stereo content other than the background vocals. There are things you can do to accent or diminish different sections of the song. The verses would generally be understated by being smaller and narrower and the choruses would be larger or wider. That adds dynamics to the mix when the performance may or may not accomplish that on its own. Using a doubling effect on the lead vocal or horns in different sections can add more dynamics to the mix by widening things out a bit. For instance, maybe double the rhythm guitar and split it wide across the stereo spectrum during the bridge sections. This is no slam on your mix. It sounds good. I always strive to make the mix as interesting as I can by adding and taking things away to add more dynamics as the song progresses.
Good job though. Everything is clear and distinct without sounding sterile. These are just suggestions.
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Post by roly on Dec 18, 2020 22:56:03 GMT -5
Hi First, thanks to all for taking the time to reply and offer advice. The comping guitar is wider now. I had actually done the mono panning thing but I was not too aggressive with the panning.....copy track, delay one track just a hair and pan them out....the inerrant Haas Effect requires one to lift the delayed track a hair to make the perceived balance even. I ducked the vox delay a bit on the brief acapella part. Still need to duck the horns in places behind the comping guitar and the guitar solo. Also, when I get around to tuning the horns, I will need to turn the trombone down a tad. Still several timing issues with the comping guitar but because the track will be replaced, that's as far as I will go. I felt compelled to bring the floor tom up 1.5dB. So, here's the current version....winters are long up here and there's no work so I'm just slowly poking along at things. cheers soundcloud.com/user-230727602/crackhouse-dec-18 |
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Post by roly on Dec 18, 2020 23:02:36 GMT -5
Oh....have added a limiter to the two track so be careful with the volume.
I think it's now sitting around -2.5 with two dB of gain reduction max.
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Post by ninworks on Dec 19, 2020 7:35:59 GMT -5
That sounds much better roly.
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Post by roly on Jan 7, 2021 15:52:09 GMT -5
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Post by ninworks on Jan 8, 2021 6:58:07 GMT -5
I know about the Haas effect and use it often when mixing.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jan 8, 2021 8:49:49 GMT -5
I get a privacy warning at that link Roly.
I've tried duplicating tracks and doing the 40ms slide on one, pan left/right etc., but always seem to favor going to my bx_solo stereo widener plugin.
I've only tried the haas effect with mono signals. Is there any application using it on a stereo track, like say a guitar that was tracked with stereo effects?
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Post by ninworks on Jan 8, 2021 17:56:38 GMT -5
There's some crazy stuff that can be done by taking a mono track, duplicating it, flipping the polarity 180 degrees, panning each track to opposite sides, then delaying it a few milliseconds. You can tune it to an open spot in the mix by varying the delay time or fudging the panning positions slightly. Even without the delay it can sometimes put a mono source in a cool pseudo-stereo space. Word of warning, it doesn't transfer to mono. That track will disappear if the mix is summed to mono. Who listens to anything in mono these days anyway. It's not something one would use a lot but there are a lot of things that can be done with polarity inversions and panning manipulation. It's not generally regarded as good engineering practice but to me, it's all about the end product and not necessarily the textbook applications of audio technology. There are exceptions to everything.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 8, 2021 18:15:58 GMT -5
I've only tried the haas effect with mono signals. Is there any application using it on a stereo track, like say a guitar that was tracked with stereo effects? There absolutely are applications for stereo tracks but they are used on mono sources most often. There's more to the Haas effect than just timing considerations. Part of what it does has to do with phase manipulation. Different delay times also alter the phase between the original signal and the delayed one as well. It depends upon how short the delay time is and the primary frequency of the program material on the track as to if it will do what you want or not. You just have to mess with it to see if it's something that will work for your particular application. I've putzed around with this kind of stuff a lot more than I probably should have but I learned about what it sounds like when it's done. That gives me the realization to recognize if it's something I may be able to use in a given situation. There's too many parameters for the different ways to apply it than there is room here to go into it. You just have to think about what it's doing to the signal(s) and be creative about how you manipulate it. |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jan 8, 2021 18:34:29 GMT -5
I need to play around with it some more. I recently tried it on an old mix of my vocal and arbitrarily slid the duplicate track around until it didn't sound like a delay. Something still didn't sound quite right and I tried reverse phase on one but it didn't work for whatever reason. There could have been other elements in the mix giving me trouble.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 9, 2021 5:45:00 GMT -5
That stuff doesn't work for everything. It depends upon the components in the mix and everything else that's going on. Something I have done on vocals that's similar is to use duplicate the lead vocal track and use either autotune or Melodyne on one of them set for pretty drastic correction. Something just short of the Cher factor. Then delay the corrected track 10 to 20 milliseconds and mix it underneath the uncorrected track. You can either split it right and left or not. It can really fatten up a vocal track without sounding extremely processed if you don't make the corrected track too loud. |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jan 9, 2021 8:23:19 GMT -5
^I recently experimented with that as well (original + pitch corrected track). Didn't run with it but has some interesting possibilities. A variant is to double a vocal track but only use one for a reverb send.
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Mix sounds good in the cans, great bass performance.