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Post by ninworks on Feb 5, 2021 14:00:26 GMT -5
I have my studio equipment set up in our guest bedroom. It's a good-sized room. 13' X 14' with a 10' ceiling. It has hickory flooring with a 10' X 12' oriental rug. There are the usual components of a bedroom, a bed, a dresser, and an old wash stand cabinet. Then there's guitar amps, Hammond organ. Leslie cabinet, desk with computer and studio monitors, 8 track tape machine, and a floor-standing effects rack that houses all the other recording gear.
That room has a real bad case of flutter echo. I can clap my hands and it takes over a half second for the repetitive echos to subside. The flutter doesn't bother me much when just using the near-field monitors but it sounds awful when recording anything with a microphone. As a result of that I am going to build some 2' X 4' acoustic panels from 1 X 3's, 2" thick rigid fiberglass, and burlap. I did some calculations and took some measurements and I'm going to need 14 panels to hang around the room in order to get the reflection times down to an acceptable level. That will be a little overkill but I'd rather have the room too dead than too live. I can always remove some of the panels if it's too much.
I found an insulation sales distributor in Nashville who keeps the fiberglass panels in stock. They are out at the moment but should have more by next week. I can buy it cheaper per fiberglass panel online but by the time I pay shipping it's considerably cheaper to buy it in Nashville even though it's an hour drive in each direction for me.
I figured it was time to spend some money on controlling some bad acoustics problems in my room. I have spent gobs of money on gear and it doesn't make sense for me not to spend a few hundred bucks to make my recording and listening environment sound better. I even got the wife's blessing as long as it looks good. If it weren't for that I could do it quicker and cheaper.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 5, 2021 17:52:56 GMT -5
Post some pics when you get it going. I've commandeered a bedroom that's 12x12 with a 10 ft tall coved(?) ceiling. / \
I have a fair amount of reflectivity too, even with carpet. I've actually thought of doing one wall (where most of my guitars hang) in barn wood. On a recent project I tried a variety of foolishness to reduce that slap by positioning my back to an open closet, a few makeshift drapes using shipping blankets and of course my stand mounted shield. But the most reflection comes from up above as I did a test with a shipping blanket over my head and mic.
I've been pondering some kind of realistic solution. If the 2 closets were deep enough I'd track vocals in there, lol.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 5, 2021 18:14:38 GMT -5
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Post by ninworks on Feb 5, 2021 18:47:03 GMT -5
Post some pics when you get it going. I've commandeered a bedroom that's 12x12 with a 10 ft tall coved(?) ceiling. / \ I have a fair amount of reflectivity too, even with carpet. I've actually thought of doing one wall (where most of my guitars hang) in barn wood. On a recent project I tried a variety of foolishness to reduce that slap by positioning my back to an open closet, a few makeshift drapes using shipping blankets and of course my stand mounted shield. But the most reflection comes from up above as I did a test with a shipping blanket over my head and mic. I've been pondering some kind of realistic solution. If the 2 closets were deep enough I'd track vocals in there, lol. I have a spreadsheet file of a scale drawing of the panels I put together in Excel that I can send you if you'd like. I can make it into a pdf if that works better for you. I don't think the barn wood is going to make much difference. Any affect it has will probably be minimal. It's the midrange that is going to be the most troublesome. 500Hz to 3kHz is the range that always seems to get into the mic. The stand mounted shield will take care of most anything above that and a hi-pass filter can minimize anything below that. Then there's the PITA solution. Make a portable vocal booth from PVC pipe and hang quilts or blankets over and around it with these; www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-spring-clamp-39530.html?_br_psugg_q=spring+clampIt can be assembled and then taken apart for storage. You just have to take the time to do the assembly and disassembly every time you want to use it unless you have a place to store it all put together. It's not going to look pretty standing in the room when not in use. There are other options as well. There are a couple companies that make foldable vocal booths that are kind of like a privacy screen that the women in old movies used to get dressed behind. Some are free standing and some are wall mounted. For instance; www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/primacoustic-flexibooth-instant-voice-over-booth/h13984000001000?cntry=US&cur=USD&source=3WWRWXGS&gclid=CjwKCAiA9vOABhBfEiwATCi7GMs2KLK0PIs9H3PcYeMcRwxosIE-6x6Su1aLRjDpUdX8AowZC-HOFRoCFGwQAvD_BwEThis vocal booth costs about the same amount as I'm going to spend on materials to build all my 14 panels. If you want the file message me your email address and I'll send it to you. |
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Post by ninworks on Feb 5, 2021 19:05:17 GMT -5
LM....heavy drapes can be a good acoustic treatment. What's cool about them is that if you want more 'liveness' they are adjustable.
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Post by FlyonNylon on Feb 5, 2021 23:39:35 GMT -5
Cool idea, let us know how it goes.
My room is about 12x10ft, carpeted, with a 9ft vaulted ceiling. Has echo issues. I placed 10 12x12 inch acoustic panels on the walls, foam/blankets in the corners which helped. Usually tracking I hang an acoustic blanket across a window on the far wall of the room, which makes a big difference.
Having a vocal/isolation booth/area would further improve the space though.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 6, 2021 8:57:42 GMT -5
I did some work at a guys studio in Michigan years back, an outbuilding on his property, nicely done but some oddities like his DAW, which was "Paris", a Win 98 platform I had never heard of or seen since. But I digress. He had these large foam blocks placed in random corners as acoustic treatment, but he made them himself by lining cardboard boxes with wax paper then shooting "Great Stuff" into them. Once set he unboxed and sculpted the squares. Can't speak to their functionality however.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 6, 2021 9:30:41 GMT -5
Another thought occurred to me. I wonder if a ceiling fan can support say 3 shipping blankets fastened with those Harbor Freight clips. 🤔
The blankets I have are the lighter ones, not the heavy quilted ones.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 6, 2021 9:37:09 GMT -5
Another thought occurred to me. I wonder if a ceiling fan can support say 3 shipping blankets fastened with those Harbor Freight clips. 🤔 The blankets I have are the lighter ones, not the heavy quilted ones. There's only one way to find out. Break the ceiling fan....or not.  |
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Feb 6, 2021 15:30:36 GMT -5
An 8x10 carpet with rubber backing will cut midrange reflections really well if you hang it on the wall with about 2" of space between the rug and the wall.
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Post by ninworks on Feb 8, 2021 8:33:45 GMT -5
Here's how to build a PVC vocal booth.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 8, 2021 13:18:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I saw that ^ the other day. Honestly, I'm thinking I may just buy some hook screws to put in the ceiling that would let me suspend some shipping blankets. I already have those in the attic, would just need to ideally snap some grommets in them, a few tie wraps, bada bing, bada boom. Mrs Kiltre did make a scrunchy face when I announced this idea (while looking up at the ceiling).
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Post by ninworks on Mar 15, 2021 10:09:01 GMT -5
I got the 2" thick X 2' X 4' Owens Corning 703 insulation, all the wood, and some of the burlap to cover the frames with, last week. The rest of the burlap should arrive in the next couple days. I set up for mass production yesterday on my back porch. That way I could just blow the sawdust off the porch with the leaf blower into the yard and not have to sweep it up. I got all the boards cut, an assembly jig made, and 9 or the 14 frames for the panels assembled, yesterday. I'll get the other 5 put together today. Here's some photos of the different stages of the frame-making stages.     |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 15, 2021 11:06:51 GMT -5
Frames look like they should do a great job. Are the frames constructed with 2"X4"s? I'll be interested to see how you proceed on these.  I have considered (and still could) putting some sort of insulating mat behind the curtains in my room. The upper panels I made were actually an after thought when I discovered I had an abundance of carpet left over from the floor. They are 2X2 frames on a thin plywood backing sheet to maintain structural stability ... then a layer of foam carpet padding with the black carpet on the surface. I put some decorative doo-dads on them to break up the plain dull look.  DSC_2541 - Copy by Larry Madsen, on Flickr  DSC_2540 - Copy by Larry Madsen, on Flickr |
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Post by ninworks on Mar 15, 2021 11:39:36 GMT -5
The outer frames are made from 1 X 3's which are actually 2-1/2" wide X 3/4" thick. I was able to buy 8' lengths of that which actually measured 96-1/4" long. I was able to clean up the ends and still get 2 - 48" long pieces from each board and 4 - 22-1/2" pieces. The middle brace is made from 1-1/2" wide X 1/2" thick wood. Those came in 24" lengths that I had to trim a bit. The panel's outside dimensions are 24" X 48" so I had to trim the end pieces and middle brace pieces to 22-1/2" to maintain the 24" outside width. I used 1/2" thick wood as the middle brace because the compressed fiberglass insulation they will be filled with measures 2" thick. That will make it flush with the front edge of the frames.
My other bolt of burlap just arrived so, hopefully, I have everything I need to finish them all. Originally I wasn't going to use burlap on the rear of the panels but, after looking at the cost of the alternatives, I am going to do that. I may even have enough to do all of them. I haven't done the math yet to find out. If not, another bolt of burlap is $29 plus shipping. Pretty cheap compared to the alternatives.
The project is coming along. I am going to Hobby Lobby today to get a rotary wheel fabric cutter if they have what I want. If they don't have one I'll just order one. That will be the easy way to cut the burlap.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 15, 2021 13:12:18 GMT -5
The outer frames are made from 1 X 3's Ah yes. My brain knew the over all size of the frames was 2' X 4'. I was allowing my eye to deceive me, imagining them larger (as in 4' X 8') and in turn the frame stiles as larger. |
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Post by ninworks on Mar 16, 2021 6:56:31 GMT -5
I finished assembling the rest of the frames and got all the 703 cut to size. Now just waiting for the rotary cutter. I had to order it. Should be here tomorrow.   |
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Post by ninworks on Mar 19, 2021 19:17:03 GMT -5
I finished 2 panels today. Here's what they will all look like. Hopefully the wrinkles in the burlap will come out in a few days. It was folded and wound pretty tight for shipping. I stretched it as tight as I could get it when I put it onto the frames. It ended us costing me about $35 each to make these but I bought a pneumatic stapler and a few extra boards just in case I messed up. Turns out that I didn't so I have some wood left. That figured into the final cost. i.postimg.cc/rFRJj5B1/Acoustic-Panel-2.jpg |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 19, 2021 20:44:33 GMT -5
It looks pretty nicely applied from the PICs.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Mar 20, 2021 9:28:26 GMT -5
Wow! Those came out great.
You do really nice work.
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Post by ninworks on Mar 20, 2021 18:40:46 GMT -5
Thanks guys. I got 7 more for 9 of the 14 covered today. I used up all my burlap. I ordered more to finish the last 5 panels. I ended up ironing the burlap pieces after I cut them to help with the wrinkles. I didn't put the iron on it directly. I used a very damp tee shirt over the top and steamed it that way. I didn't want to take the chance of burning the fabric. Using the wet tee shirt put a lot more even steam on it. Burlap has such an open weave the steam would probably blow through it and not get everywhere it needed to be. I'm sure glad I got a pneumatic stapler. There's probably 300 staples in each one of those. I could never put that many in with a manual staple gun. My knuckles couldn't take it. Cutting the burlap to size. i.postimg.cc/wvhRBKsq/Acoustic-Cutting-Burlap.jpgThe 703 pile is dwindling. i.postimg.cc/dtQZJxQF/Acoustic-703-Pile-Dwindling.jpg9 done. i.postimg.cc/D00hMLh9/Acoustic-9-Done.jpg |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 20, 2021 20:55:14 GMT -5
Very good. I can't wait to hear you tell us how they work for the room. I bet they will do a great job for you.  |
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 21, 2021 0:19:27 GMT -5
very nice
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Post by ninworks on Mar 26, 2021 11:21:50 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time deciding where on the walls I want to hang the panels. I'm thinking I may need to make some more if these don't satisfy what I'm trying to control in the room. Since I have 10 foot ceilings I'm thinking that my front wall, the one behind my studio monitors, needs to have panels behind the speakers. If I mount them low enough to do that then there is a lot of exposed wall above the panels and I still may have some flutter echo to deal with. If I hang the panels higher on that wall then there is nothing behind my speakers. I'll have to see what I have but, I think I have enough burlap and wood to make two more panels. I'll just need more insulation to fill them with. If I build two more I can place them behind my speakers and that problem is solved.
I guess what I need to do is hang the panels on the rear wall and listen to how much of as difference that makes. Due to having a bed in the room the height of the panels are more definite since the head-board of the bed dictates that.
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Post by ninworks on Mar 26, 2021 15:13:59 GMT -5
I did some testing today. I set up my reference mic today and ran some reverb decay time (RT60) tests on my room. I started out with no panels in the room and did a number of hand claps at varying levels. I recorded them on to a mono track at 44.1/24. Then I brought in 4 panels and placed them along the back wall and recorded another hand clap track. I brought in 4 more panels and placed them along the side walls and recorded another track. I only have 9 panels completed at this point so I brought the last one in, leaned it against the wall behind my computer monitor, and recorded another track.
I put on some headphones to listen back to the tracks. WOW!! What a difference. Doing the tests in stages really opened my eyes to what was going on with my room. After the first test I could hear a slight difference in the decay time but most of what I heard was the difference in the frequency of the reflections in the room. There was still some ambience but the high frequency content of the reflections was duller.
When I put 2 more panels along each side wall the frequency didn't seem to change as much but the decay time shortened some more. That was 8 panels in the room.
I didn't think putting one more panel behind the monitor would do much but to my amazement it made a substantial difference in the sound. The decay time also shortened.
Then I sat and listened to some music that I was very familiar with through the speakers. WHAT a DIFFERENCE!! The stereo image improved drastically and everything was a lot more distinct.
I can't wait to get all 14 panels hung. It's going to make a huge difference in the sound of my room. Especially when setting up a LDC mic to record something.
I highly recommend treating your room. I had no idea everything would sound this much better and I'm not even done yet. That's in a room with two windows, one of which is quite large, and a big mirror. Those things are kryptonite for acoustics.
If anyone is interested in the audio files I recorded for the tests let me know and I'll send them to you. I took some photos of the different stages as well.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 26, 2021 17:06:23 GMT -5
If anyone is interested in the audio files I recorded for the tests let me know Is it possible to just post them to the thread like you would one of your compositions? |
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Post by ninworks on Mar 26, 2021 17:26:07 GMT -5
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Grizbear-NJ
Wholenote
"I'll do the BEATING around here"
Posts: 217
Age: 71
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Post by Grizbear-NJ on Mar 26, 2021 23:46:39 GMT -5
I'm a latecomer to this thread; so I have a query, and a suggestion. From following the initial post, and the basic visual concept, I assume you want to permanently hang/mount the panels on the walls in the room shown, versus a temporary or adjustable system? If so, do you plan to allow for spacing between the panel and the wall? This would allow both sides of the panel to interact with the sound. If you mount directly to the wall, you cut your effectiveness in half. A thought to consider for recording purposes.
My thoughts: you have a excellent finished product (burlap) on both sides of the panel; you may want to expand your experiment to see how/if spacing (from the wall) effects the finished sound product in any way. You'll have to make that assessment to determine if there is any value to spacing; if not then there is no problem.
My experience: I have seen studios utilize sound baffles in a number of different ways, most of them with a defined "space" distance from walls. Most of them hung various brackets from the ceiling to accomplish the task. Keep in mind they needed the versatility to accommodate different set ups. A memorable one in particular was lengths of conduit pipe hung from the ceiling horizontally with cables, and packing quilts draped over them, used as the sound baffle. The look wasn't pretty, but it worked fine.
If you do want to do the "permanent" mount on the walls, you may also want to allow enough space to clean/vacuum the panels periodically. Burlap has a tendency to gather dust & cob webs. Also; however you intend to mount the panels: be sure to check, whatever material you utilize for brackets, does not buzz or rattle in sympathy with certain frequencies.
I hope I didn't rain on your parade.
By the way; excellent workmanship on the panels. Good Luck with the project.
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Post by ninworks on Mar 27, 2021 5:53:00 GMT -5
Thanks Griz.
I intent to hang them on the walls with hooks and eyelets. That will give me a 1.5" space between the wall and the panels. The theory is that the panels need to have a space equal to at least 1/10 the wavelength of the lowest frequency you are trying to absorb. A 1.5" space behind the panels is good for a frequency of about 800Hz. So anything that gets behind the panels and reflects off the wall from 800Hz and up will be absorbed. If I can find some longer hardware I'm going to increase that to 2". That would take me down to about 700Hz.
Midrange and high frequency absorption is what I'm after. The 2" Owens Corning 703 has an absorption coefficient of 1.24 at 500Hz so it will absorb 100% of anything hitting it at that frequency. Above 500Hz the coefficient falls off a bit but is still at about 1 or above. Nothing that hits it above 500Hz is coming back out.
Versatility is not a concern. This is all in a bedroom anyway so I have limitations because of where all the furnishings are. I have done as much as I can to maintain some sort of symmetry with where all that stuff is placed in the room but it won't be perfect. At some point I will make some portable panels that I can place around me when recording anything that needs to sound up close and personal. As for now I am just trying to tame the room as a whole and get rid of the overabundant flutter echo and upper midrange resonance in the room.
I took cleaning them into consideration. The hook and eyelet mounting will make them easy to take off the wall and clean. I am going to make a jig for installing the eyelets onto the panels and a drilling jig to put anchors in the drywall for installing the hooks. That way all the mounts for each panel will be exactly the same so any panel can be hung anywhere in the room without having to worry about if it will fit the mounts.
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Grizbear-NJ
Wholenote
"I'll do the BEATING around here"
Posts: 217
Age: 71
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Post by Grizbear-NJ on Mar 27, 2021 12:24:26 GMT -5
Sounds good; your thought process is excellent. It looks like you covered all of the bases. A major part of my experience is with mid to low range issues, associated with drums & bass. I always had to do it the hard way by trial and error. I think the errors were in the majority if I remember correctly.
Again: Good Luck with the project.
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