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Post by ninworks on Jul 13, 2021 5:23:08 GMT -5
I have been pretty happy with the amp and cabinet modeling in my Avid Eleven Rack ever since I got it. At that point I had been playing through modelers for a number of years due to necessity. Over the last couple weeks I have been going old school and recording tube amps, turned up really loud, with great microphones and preamps. Yesterday I recorded my Twin Reverb turned up to 8. Absolutely GLORIOUS but I may have to repaint the studio now. I think the paint on the walls may be loose now. After I recorded the rhythm guitar tracks with the Twin I went into the Eleven Rack looking for a sound to use on a lead guitar track I needed to do since the modeler has effects and such built in. I went through every sound in it looking for something close to what I needed so I could tweak it to fit the needs of the particular song I was working on. I couldn't find ANYTHING that sounded good to me after recording the Twin all morning. Maybe because of hearing damage....  I had gotten so used to the modeler that I had convinced myself it sounded just as good, or better in some cases, than a real amp. I am not convinced of that anymore. They are certainly more convenient but that wouldn't cut it for me yesterday. If I had one of the newer machines my opinion may be different, An Ax Effects, Helix, or Kemper would likely sound better but I don't know if the feel factor is any better compared to the older units. I remember when I first started using modelers. I felt like they didn't respond to touch like a real amp and didn't like it. The only way I could make that happen was to turn up the gain on the modeler past the point where it fit well in a track. After using them for so many years I had forgotten what real amps sounded and responded like. I'm spoilt! |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jul 13, 2021 8:09:41 GMT -5
I find electric guitar the hardest thing to record, despite the tools at my disposal (Eleven Rack, 3 different amps, tons of guitars, pedals, mics, etc.). Recording amps is problematic for me because for the most part tracking loud isn't an option. The thing I like about the Eleven Rack and modelers in general is that they require less post tracking processing than a mic'd amp. This is probably because my limited skills at mic placement, acoustic treatment, amp eq settings and knowledge of eqing the track once recorded.
On my most recent project I tried to record my Princeton II with my E906. The track solo'd was very much as I had intended and true to what my ears heard in the room. In the mix it was problematic and less defined than the Eleven Rack track. I'm certain there were a number of variables such as mic placement, proximity effect, amp eq, etc. In the end Eleven Rack prevailed, but I'm determined to work at it some more.
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Post by ninworks on Jul 13, 2021 8:27:35 GMT -5
That's what it takes. Experience. Mic choice and placement are paramount. I didn't get it right when I first set them up. When recording the AC15 I used the e906 and a Royer R121 ribbon mic. I had to move them and tinker with the settings on the amp a couple times before I found a good sound that fit into the track well. When I was recording the Twin yesterday I started out with an AKG D12 and an AKG C414XLII on the amp. I got the sound on the amp sounding good and moved the mics twice and wasn't getting what I needed through the system. So, I changed mics to the R121 and a SM57 and used my Tele copy instead of the SG I started with. I moved the mics once after the initial setup. It sounded great and fit into the song perfectly. I also started out using a distortion pedal into the Twin but didn't like the sound of it at all. That's when I plugged straight in and turned it up. That made a huge difference. I also went straight in when I was recording the AC15 a few days ago. I don't have much in the way of pedals anymore. I sold all the ones I used to have because I never used them and they were seriously outdated. I may have to start replenishing them. I actually bought a MXR M133 Micro Amp off eBay today to drive the front end of the amps harder. I think one of the main factors is you just have to do it enough to have an idea of what it needs to sound like in your head and recognize it when you get there. That is only accomplished by experimentation and experience. Don't be afraid to change things up or make adjustments in the process. If it doesn't sound good to you change something. This is the setup I started out with before I changed mics. I also put a baffle behind the amp and in front of the others in an effort to knock the volume in the room down a little. It didn't help much but did a little. I had to have my headphone mix blasting just to hear it. I don't like doing that but until I can make some boxes for amplifiers so I can separate them from the speaker cabinets it's all I can do. i.postimg.cc/QxbKz0WL/Recording-Guitars-2.jpg |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jul 13, 2021 8:54:40 GMT -5
Tone is in the Folger's coffee can.  |
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Post by ninworks on Jul 13, 2021 9:06:26 GMT -5
There were some screws in the Folgers can and I had to move it because it was rattling from the sound pressure level in the room. Trying to record tube guitar amps is problematic. They need to be turned up to their sweet spot and that is too loud in most cases. I always have to do it when my wife is at work. Neighbors aren't really an issue for me. I only have one that is close enough to hear me and they don't care. Or so they say. The lady next door works from home a lot but she is often gone too. The other neighbors are far enough away that I don't think they could hear it unless I were to open a window or door. Even then they have to listen for it. I have recorded loud amps in a close neighborhood before with success but there are compromises to be made. I used to put the amp in the corner of the room surrounded by bean bag chairs on all sides and a piece of plywood across the top of them with another bean bag chair on top. That worked but you need a separate speaker cabinet to do that. Combos will overheat. That's why I'm going to remove the amplifiers from my combos and make heads for them. I can put them in an acoustically treated closet without issues. Putting the speakers in a small space like that also affects the recorded sound. It can make the amp sound small but it can also sound good if done right. The bean bag chairs sounded better than gobos. I suppose it may be because they absorbed a lot of the sound so it wasn't reflected as much. I dunno. Just speculating.
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Post by ninworks on Jul 13, 2021 9:10:10 GMT -5
Larry, your guitar tracks always sound great to me. So, whatever you're doing works.
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gdw3
Halfnote
Insert clever statement here
Posts: 81
Formerly Known As: Gordon
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Post by gdw3 on Jul 13, 2021 14:15:52 GMT -5
Modelers can literally sound exactly like any amp. But the thing that you still can't replace is the squishiness of heated-up tubes. Modelers are fine, even preferable, for many recording or touring situations. They're small, powerful, versatile, consistent. But it's still very hard to simulate the natural compression of tubes. It also depends what kind of player you are. If your focus is to get the tracks down fast so you can keep going, or if you're playing the same set of songs with specific effects settings every night on a tour, modelling is hard to beat. Side-by-side, there may be no difference in timbre or sound quality. But if it feels better, you'll play better. And that matters when you depend on feel in your playing, especially if you're improvising.
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Post by ninworks on Jul 13, 2021 18:05:42 GMT -5
I am going to do some experimenting with using the modeler with an amp to see what I can get out of it. My thought is that if I bypass the amp and cabinet modeling and just use the effects section it could be a real benefit. Since I have no pedals to speak of I need some kind of effects device. Either pedals or a multi-effects unit. The internal effects on the Eleven rack are plentiful so that could be the ticket if it doesn't make the amp sound different. I have many plugins to use in my DAW but sometimes the effects need to be coming from the amp to make it sound like I want it to. That's a project for another day. Maybe tomorrow while the wife is away at work.
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Post by reverendrob on Jul 14, 2021 0:03:51 GMT -5
The Twin in the Eleven Rack only really shines to me on the Steve Jones setting. Max it all. |
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MoJoe
Wholenote
Posts: 855
Formerly Known As: quiksilver
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Post by MoJoe on Jul 14, 2021 3:40:53 GMT -5
Not a home recorder myself. My two best friends both have built professional studios (and careers) that I may use at discretion.
But this thread ticks some boxes in a good way, so forgive me for sliding in.
Recording in the studio(s) both analog and with plugins has been no different experience to playing elsewhere. Sagging tubes rule the guitar world.
(The one distortion pedal I liked with my Twin Reverb was an old ProCo Rat, tone pot turned down. Harmonic overtones and feedback for days..)
But I've been using a PG modeling amp at home for a few months now feeling that these thingies really like to work with older pedals.
Micro Amp, RC booster etc. either in front or in the loop have been doing unexpectedly well there.
Pic at #3 reminds me of my bedroom, - before Mrs MoJoe was chiming in. When the living room was bursting at the seams from half a dozen tube combos making friends with then new to me big ass bass cabinets and I had to expand into the neighboring chambers. Until my scheme was detected. Sad story..
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