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Post by ninworks on Sept 15, 2021 19:13:27 GMT -5
This is the best comparison I have seen or heard comparing the sound of analog tape to digital. Very eye opening.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Sept 16, 2021 9:24:25 GMT -5
Interesting presentation. The tape definitely has more of a low end, which is pleasant to my ears. Warm. The kick has an almost unpleasant mid-range clunk when shifted to the digital side.
I use Softube "Tape" on all my busses and again on the master buss. Honestly, I'm not sure I hear a difference, certainly not in the degree you hear on this presentation.
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Post by ninworks on Sept 16, 2021 10:34:04 GMT -5
One thing for certain, he's using top tier gear. Anyone who has a modded MCI JH24 2" 24 track tape machine is not fooling around and doing this as a hobby. That alone is in the $12k to $15k price range or more. Just to do the simultaneous recordings to both analog AND digital is going to require some splitters with, very likely, some very high-end transformers. His splitter alone probably cost more than my entire rig. Any kind of converters with 24 ins and outs is going to be pricey too. Then there's the, "He really knows what he's doing," factor that also adds to the results.
I used a tape emulation plugin on a master bus yesterday just to see if I could hear a difference. I could hear it but it was subtle and not as noticeable as what Marc got. Most of what I heard was it brought out the ambience on the drum tracks in the mix and added a little bit of clarity to the bottom end but not much. Kind of like a mild compression would do. I need to mess with that more to see if I can get better results. Maybe a different plugin would do more. I only have the Satin plugin from Uhe and the only reason I had it was because it has built-in analog noise reduction decoders as well as tape emulation. I needed them when I was transferring my old commercially recorded 1/2" 8 track masters to digital that were dbx encoded.
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Post by windmill on Sept 16, 2021 18:01:19 GMT -5
While I cant hear half the things he is talking about, because my ears just are not that sharp,
I prefer the tape version over the digital.
It might be just the fact of growing up in the tape era, but I am sensitive to the "harshness" of digital. In many cases, like in the examples in the video,there is just a sense of it being "not quite right".
Sometimes I wonder if people who grew up since the start of the digital age prefer it over the sound of tape.
Thanks for posting the video
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Post by oldfartbassplayrwalt on Sept 24, 2021 20:28:47 GMT -5
you know, things get really confused for me when we do these audio comparisons on the web.
Ideally, I WANT TO BE SITTING THERE IN FRONT OF HIS MONITORS to really get what he's saying.
otherwise-
I assume the sounds he's playing out loud are being recorded digitally, which means another level of A to D conversion.
And as its being stored onto a digital video format, can I assume there may be some lossy compression?
Now, I'm streaming this video into my computer which may have crappy D to A converters.
If I'm using Blue Tooth somewhere in this signal path, there's anOTHER level of lossy compression/decompression.
Then there's the question of my 72 year old ears. listening through a $75 pc sound system.
see what I'm trying to say? I don't hear nuttin'...
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Post by ninworks on Sept 25, 2021 5:58:50 GMT -5
I can certainly hear the difference. I have listened to it in both headphones and studio monitors and can hear the difference using both. Listening through computer speakers is probably the main issue for you. Old ears contribute to it as well. The most noticeable differences are in the bottom end of the tracks and 2" computer speakers in a little tiny box are not going to reproduce that. All the different levels of data compression and digital conversion will slew the results somewhat but the differences are still there. If they weren't being played back to back then it would be harder to notice the differences. It's subtle and not a night and day difference and yes even the tape tracks were recorded to a digital medium but so were the digitally recorded ones. It's not as much about the final playback medium as it is the format of the initial recording medium.
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Post by LeftyMeister on Sept 27, 2021 14:33:53 GMT -5
Along with the compression and hiss with tape, the distinction I can hear is more midrange with the digital. It may be due to the drums and bass sounding more mushy with tape, which tends to mask the mids.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 416
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Post by DrKev on Oct 25, 2021 3:36:24 GMT -5
He's kinda comparing apples to oranges here. He's recording hot to the tape to get the compression. So we're really comparing the compression vs no compression in addition to anything else.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 14, 2022 16:04:21 GMT -5
I like Marc's videos. This is a good one showing what tape *can* sound like in *one situation*.
That's the thing I learned listening to various comparisons(the split mic tests are the best). Depending on the machine itself, how its set up, the tape formula, the flux, IPS, etc, it can be anything from subtle to blown out. I do think it offers something that you can't really get in digital, or even with other analog emulations. I have an Otari 2 track(dead in the water again) and haven't matched its "je ne sais quoi" with plugins or my RND 542 tape emulators. It's all good, though. Many ways to get great sounds these days.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 14, 2022 22:10:20 GMT -5
Tape has some mojo digital doesn't but that doesn't mean digital sounds bad. Just different. With tape what's going in is not the same as what's coming out. With digital they are the same, in AND out, at least at his level. I'm sure he has the best of the best when it comes to converters and such. That, and he is an expert at what he does. That makes a big difference all by itself.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 14, 2022 23:02:05 GMT -5
Tape has some mojo digital doesn't but that doesn't mean digital sounds bad. Just different. With tape what's going in is not the same as what's coming out. With digital they are the same, in AND out, at least at his level. I'm sure he has the best of the best when it comes to converters and such. That, and he is an expert at what he does. That makes a big difference all by itself. Agreed.
I think I read an interview with Allen Sides where he commented about tape. In those days since you monitored a band through the board while setting up sounds and while recording, you didn't hear the tape until playback. He said from real time straight through the board to tape playback he felt like he lost something like 15% of the sound. Interesting.
And yea, I saw some of Marc's AD/DA stuff - one of them was quite expensive for 8 inputs AD no DA. JCF Audio AD8. Something like $4700.
My Lynx Aurora (n) is rich enough for my blood but still not as high end as stuff like Merging tech/Lavry/JC. I only need it to be *so* good, I think...
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Post by ninworks on Jan 16, 2022 5:39:33 GMT -5
The Lynx stuff is great gear. Not inexpensive by any means. If money were no object I would definitely step up to the best converters but for me, that's not an option. The RME Fireface UC is better than the Focusrite 18i20 I had before. The next time, if there is one, I'll get just converters. I don't need built-in mic preamps. I have that covered and have digital connections to them.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 16, 2022 18:38:11 GMT -5
The Lynx stuff is great gear. Not inexpensive by any means. If money were no object I would definitely step up to the best converters but for me, that's not an option. The RME Fireface UC is better than the Focusrite 18i20 I had before. The next time, if there is one, I'll get just converters. I don't need built-in mic preamps. I have that covered and have digital connections to them. Yea, love just a DB-25 interface. Goes to the patch bay real easy... I need to expand mine one of these days.
I also have one of the UA Apollo x8p's for my mobile rig(expanded with an Audient set of pres/AD). It makes for a great light rig with the preamps in there, and I can use the unison tech to have an approximation of Neve, Helios, API, Tube desks etc. Makes for nice processing on the way in. I've since gotten over my fears in the early does of doing anything to a signal on the way in. Saves a crap ton of time on the back end...
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Post by ninworks on Jan 16, 2022 18:57:07 GMT -5
I use ADAT and S-PDIF exclusively. I never record anything at a higher sample rate than 44.1kHz so ADAT offers 8 channels at that rate. I have an API A2D preamp that has S-PDIF outputs on it but I seldom use them. I have an old Focusrite ISA428 with the digital option that will accommodate 8 channels through the digital card so I run the analog outputs of the API into that and use a single Lightpipe connection for all of them into the RME. That makes for an easy setup.
I also have a UAD Satellite 2 PCIe card in my machine so I have plugins for that as well.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 17, 2022 1:38:43 GMT -5
I use ADAT and S-PDIF exclusively. I never record anything at a higher sample rate than 44.1kHz so ADAT offers 8 channels at that rate. I have an API A2D preamp that has S-PDIF outputs on it but I seldom use them. I have an old Focusrite ISA428 with the digital option that will accommodate 8 channels through the digital card so I run the analog outputs of the API into that and use a single Lightpipe connection for all of them into the RME. That makes for an easy setup. I also have a UAD Satellite 2 PCIe card in my machine so I have plugins for that as well. I dig S-PDIF and AES too. I use two cables to get up to 8 @ 96khz for my acoustic/jazz type sessions for various reasons.
The UAD stuff is quite good. My hardware tends to edge it out but there are some pieces I'll never own and the plugs do a great job. I love their Studer A800 and Ampex ATR 102. The 1176 collection and LA-2a collections are favorites of mine as well...
What do you like of theirs?
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Post by ninworks on Jan 17, 2022 5:54:16 GMT -5
The ISA428 has a S-PDIF output as well and I have used it before. The ADAT connection is easier and I don't hear any difference in the sound compared to S-PDIF.
I agree about the hardware. I have a Warm Audio 1176 clone that sounds better than any 1176 plugin I have. I also have a Lexicon PCM70. The 480L plugin sounds good but the hardware PCM70 sounds incredible next to it. It's just a little noisy if I'm not careful. The thing I like about the PCM70 is the massive host of parameters it has. The 480L plugin is awesome though. It's the best sounding reverb plugin I have and there are many in my plugin list.
Dangerous BAX EQ Collection dbx 160 Compressor Empirical Labs EL8 Distressor Compressor MXR Flanger Doubler SPL Transient Designer 1176 Classic Limiter Collection La-2A collection Fairchild 670 Pultec EQP-1 Lexicon 480L
I have a number of others but those are the ones I use the most. I really like the Fairchild 670 on steel string acoustic guitar. Just using the default settings makes an acoustic sound very good. It usually takes very little tweaking.
The Dangerous Bax mastering EQ is cool in that it is stereo and has Mid Side capability. There's some serious capability for clearing out frequencies in the center of a stereo track so others that are panned to the center stand out.
The SPL Transient designer is awesome. It's like a compressor on steroids.
The MXR Flanger Doubler is very cool too. I had one of them back in the day and it was very useful. Mostly the doubler. I think the plugin probably sounds better than the original in this case. It's certainly not as noisy.
The EL8 Distressor is a great unit. Someday I hope to get my hands on a hardware version of it. What a cool and useful piece of tech. A great design. There's not much you can't do with it compression-wise. You know something is a great unit when there aren't many available on the used market and the ones that are cost almost as much as a new one. That is the case with these.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 17, 2022 13:03:41 GMT -5
The ISA428 has a S-PDIF output as well and I have used it before. The ADAT connection is easier and I don't hear any difference in the sound compared to S-PDIF. I agree about the hardware. I have a Warm Audio 1176 clone that sounds better than any 1176 plugin I have. I also have a Lexicon PCM70. The 480L plugin sounds good but the hardware PCM70 sounds incredible next to it. It's just a little noisy if I'm not careful. The thing I like about the PCM70 is the massive host of parameters it has. The 480L plugin is awesome though. It's the best sounding reverb plugin I have and there are many in my plugin list. Dangerous BAX EQ Collection dbx 160 Compressor Empirical Labs EL8 Distressor Compressor MXR Flanger Doubler SPL Transient Designer 1176 Classic Limiter Collection La-2A collection Fairchild 670 Pultec EQP-1 Lexicon 480L I have a number of others but those are the ones I use the most. I really like the Fairchild 670 on steel string acoustic guitar. Just using the default settings makes an acoustic sound very good. It usually takes very little tweaking. The Dangerous Bax mastering EQ is cool in that it is stereo and has Mid Side capability. There's some serious capability for clearing out frequencies in the center of a stereo track so others that are panned to the center stand out. The SPL Transient designer is awesome. It's like a compressor on steroids. The MXR Flanger Doubler is very cool too. I had one of them back in the day and it was very useful. Mostly the doubler. I think the plugin probably sounds better than the original in this case. It's certainly not as noisy. The EL8 Distressor is a great unit. Someday I hope to get my hands on a hardware version of it. What a cool and useful piece of tech. A great design. There's not much you can't do with it compression-wise. You know something is a great unit when there aren't many available on the used market and the ones that are cost almost as much as a new one. That is the case with these. Yea, same here. I can live with digital EQ better than dynamics processing. Something about it... I have an LA500 opto comp, AudioScape Bus comp(SSL style), CAPI FC526 FET and Hairball 1176 D I built. As well as some DBX560a's I got for a song. They bring something to the table. Though I have learned to use the software and really get good results. Also check out Analog Obsession. Most of those plugs are free. The Fetish comp really sounds great, especially in all buttons mode(SLAM).
Love my Bax plugin, too.
The 480l plugin is really great, I also love the Capitol chambers. Apparently the guys at Capitol switched back and forth from the live chamber and the model and couldn't tell apart...
I would like a hardware verb at some point, I just don't know what to go with. If money were no object, the Bricasti...
I've had a Distressor on my wish list for quite a while. Honestly, for what it does, it's a bargain if you ask me...though it used to be a good bit cheaper.
The Fairchild 670 definitely adds something when it's not even moving the needle.
I'll have to check out some of the others you have as I don't have all of them...
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Post by ninworks on Jan 17, 2022 13:44:41 GMT -5
I have the Fab Filter bundle and a bunch of PSP stuff as well. There's some great stuff sprinkled throughout those. There's nothing wrong with using plugins. Many of them are so close to the original hardware they emulate it takes extremely close scrutiny to tell the difference. A good plugin sounds much better than a low end hardware unit.
The PCM70 is a great sounding unit for the money. I think it has something the 224 and 480 don't. I've used all of them but always prefer the 70. It may be just because I know how to operate it better after having it for so long.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 17, 2022 17:12:18 GMT -5
I have the Fab Filter bundle and a bunch of PSP stuff as well. There's some great stuff sprinkled throughout those. There's nothing wrong with using plugins. Many of them are so close to the original hardware they emulate it takes extremely close scrutiny to tell the difference. A good plugin sounds much better than a low end hardware unit. The PCM70 is a great sounding unit for the money. I think it has something the 224 and 480 don't. I've used all of them but always prefer the 70. It may be just because I know how to operate it better after having it for so long. For sure. Love the PSP stuff like Old Timer and Old Timer multiband. Killer plugs. Infinistrip, the master EQ, I have a bunch. 2445 verb etc.
I have Fabfilter proq3 and that just makes EQ so easy. Timeless which I am still getting to know, and Saturn 2.
I also love Valhalla delay, the EP3 from UAD...
Are you into Goodhertz? I love their stuff. Tupe is amazing. Lots of realistic, tweakable tube and tape sounds with a comp in there to boot.
Analog Obsession is also great.
Too many choices is my main issue! I think there was something to working with analog just the fact that you had a fairly fixed set of equipment every day. Hard to do with plugs with all that's available. But I have been paring down so I have a bunch that I know well and use. Much better I think than using gazillions of them...
May have to check out a hardware verb.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 18, 2022 6:54:43 GMT -5
I went through a phase of too many plugins. At one point I had so many that when I would open my effects window in Pro Tools my monitor screen was too small to fit all of them on it. When I upgraded my computer a few years ago and had to update PT as well, I decided I wasn't going to do that anymore. When I had so many I never knew what to use at any particular moment and was always using something different just because I had them. I decided it was better to learn to use a few well than a lot, not very well because I was unfamiliar with them.
I only have one tape emulation plugin and the only reason I got it was because I was digitizing some old 1/2" multi-track tapes that were dbx 156 encoded. The "uhe Satin" plugin had a number of decoders in it and had the one I needed to decode the tapes. It has some tape emulations as well but I have yet to use any of them. I need to revisit that.
Never heard of Goodhertz and don't have any of the Analog Obsessions stuff. I still have more plugins than I will probably ever use. Most of the time when reaching for an EQ or delay I just use the native stuff that comes with Pro Tools. They work very well and use very little CPU power. The native compressor is also very powerful and works quite well if I just need to control something and don't want to add color to it.
I have been using the PSP stuff since my early days and always liked it. The 2445 is really good. I like using it for small spaces. I also use the Vintage Warmer often. I used a lot of their EQ's in the past but don't much anymore.
I can talk about this stuff for days.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jan 18, 2022 9:20:27 GMT -5
Softube Tape, like that commercial says; "I put that $#!+ on everything". Abbey Road EQ's every now and then. Lately I've been stripping down my mastering chain and using Brainworx bx_masterdesk for final mixdown.
I probably get 10 emails a day for plugin solicitations.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 18, 2022 10:03:26 GMT -5
I probably get 10 emails a day for plugin solicitations. I have gotten 2 emails in the last week from UAD for a $50 plugin coupon. I won't use them. I already have all of the ones I want and don't need any more. Their plugins are already stupid-expensive and $50 hardly makes a dent in the price. When they used to have some for less than $100 they would send out an occasional $25 coupon and I would use it. Now most of their plugins are $200 and up. That's ridiculous! I hate marketing strategies. Double the price and throw them a bone and still make more money on them than they used to. It's not like there's a chip shortage or supply chain issue that raises the price of plugins. They are getting greedy. They have always been expensive but it's getting out of hand. DSP based plugins are quickly going to be extinct due to the speed and power of newer computers. The competition can make plugins that work just as well that don't require buying proprietary hardware to be able to use them. UAD needs to rethink their plugin business model or their days in the market are going to be over soon. The same goes for Avid and Pro Tools. If I ever have to change DAW's Pro Tools will not be on my list. I WILL NOT pay them a $700 licensing fee every year for the privilege of buying a product from them. There are too many other options these days to put up with that. I love Pro Tools but hate Avid. They are now, and always have been, just about making money. They have no convictions for customer service. AFAIC they can burn in hell.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 18, 2022 16:45:10 GMT -5
I probably get 10 emails a day for plugin solicitations. I have gotten 2 emails in the last week from UAD for a $50 plugin coupon. I won't use them. I already have all of the ones I want and don't need any more. Their plugins are already stupid-expensive and $50 hardly makes a dent in the price. When they used to have some for less than $100 they would send out an occasional $25 coupon and I would use it. Now most of their plugins are $200 and up. That's ridiculous! I hate marketing strategies. Double the price and throw them a bone and still make more money on them than they used to. It's not like there's a chip shortage or supply chain issue that raises the price of plugins. They are getting greedy. They have always been expensive but it's getting out of hand. DSP based plugins are quickly going to be extinct due to the speed and power of newer computers. The competition can make plugins that work just as well that don't require buying proprietary hardware to be able to use them. UAD needs to rethink their plugin business model or their days in the market are going to be over soon. The same goes for Avid and Pro Tools. If I ever have to change DAW's Pro Tools will not be on my list. I WILL NOT pay them a $700 licensing fee every year for the privilege of buying a product from them. There are too many other options these days to put up with that. I love Pro Tools but hate Avid. They are now, and always have been, just about making money. They have no convictions for customer service. AFAIC they can burn in hell. 100% agree about UAD. They are out of their minds. Especially with the upgrade cost for legacy channel strip owners. I have the API vision strip and the new one would still cost me $150 just to upgrade to a newer version with barely new features. If you want to use it Native in Luna, you have to pay something like $600. It's utter madness.
They really screwed the pooch when they went with DSP. I mean, yea, it was a big deal when UAD2 hit in 2012 or whatever a decade ago, but they are married to that platform and that sucks. I can barely fit a 1084 on each channel with a Studer 800 on my Octo satellite. The more accurately they model these hardware pieces, the more DSP it takes, and it's limited by old SHARC chips. Too bad, really. Now, still love that DSP for tracking with the Apollo, but mixing, oof.
Many more companies are un-tethered to hardware or old business models and tech. They advance as technology openly allows. I dig Goodhertz and Fuse etc for this. Fabfilter...
I am with you on AVID as well. Nothing edits like PT. Its so fast and logical. Leaves all the others in the dust like Logic, Reaper, Studio 1(although S1 is good at it)Harrison Mixbus etc... It's insanely expensive. I have a 2019 Perpetual license right before it cost so much. I was only paying $99 a year or something like that. That made sense. Then it went way up. No thanks. It's another piece of software that while great, is a slave to it's own ground breaking paradigm, just 25 years too old. They can burn in Hades for sure. *Italian under the chin gesture*
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jan 18, 2022 17:16:31 GMT -5
I'll keep running PT 10 in my Win 7 box until it croaks. I've really gotten semi functional with it after almost 10 years🙄
After that, I dunno. I hope I won't forfeit all my add ons and plugins when I migrate to another DAW. It won't be Pro Tools, that I'm certain.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 18, 2022 20:00:17 GMT -5
Softube Tape, like that commercial says; "I put that $#!+ on everything". Abbey Road EQ's every now and then. Lately I've been stripping down my mastering chain and using Brainworx bx_masterdesk for final mixdown. I probably get 10 emails a day for plugin solicitations. There are a bunch of nice tape plugs out there - Softube is nice and simple to use. That is underrated. Too many tweaking options I think, in many plugs.
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Post by achase4u on Jan 18, 2022 20:03:18 GMT -5
I'll keep running PT 10 in my Win 7 box until it croaks. I've really gotten semi functional with it after almost 10 years🙄 After that, I dunno. I hope I won't forfeit all my add ons and plugins when I migrate to another DAW. It won't be Pro Tools, that I'm certain. Yea. It's unfortunate. Pro tools would essentially have to make its own(and everybody's) legacy sessions obsolete and invent a new DAW, I think. They can't change certain things fundamentally at it's core that I think need to change in order to stay current. Damn if it doesn't do a lot of things great, though.
That is the privilege of making a DAW as recently as Presonus has. You start from a much more current springboard technologically speaking.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 19, 2022 4:54:04 GMT -5
I have been considering getting Studio One and starting to get familiar with it. I have heard it is quite similar in operation as Pro Tools. Since Prosonus uses the VST3 format for plugins I am all about that. The AAX format Avid moved too just pi$$es me off. I understand they had to change when 64 bit OS based computers arrived but there should have been some way for them to make the newer Pro Tools versions backwards compatible with the RTAS format. Instead, you had to throw out all your old plugins and buy all new ones. If there was ever a "Bird Flip Of The Decade Award" it would go to Avid for that one thing alone. Then there's the proprietary aspect of the two previously mentioned plugins. Then there was all the Cease And Desist legal maneuvering Avid did to stop companies from making wrapper programs that would allow you to run VST's inside Pro Tools. I applaud the ones like DDMF that did it anyway. I don't know how they got around it but I'm glad they did.
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