|
|
Post by jonnyblooz on Sept 18, 2021 21:18:00 GMT -5
Okay. so I've been working on a Strat build for a while now, and I'm getting into the home stretch, and I have made a grievous error. I purchased a really nice quality decal (nicest one I've ever worked with) and subsequently destroyed it, and set myself back to square one on this portion of the job.
I had the neck stained and finished with 3-4 coats of Minwax satin polyurethane wipe on. I applied the decal, and waited 2-3 days before applying the poly over the decal. End result was tragic. I noticed almost immediately what looked like a couple of spots as if the wet poly was getting under the decal. Soon it was bubbling up, and one wipe too many trying to smooth it, the whole thing started disintegrating. I had gone with a sponge brush to make it less abusive, but the brush was laying it on so thick, I was hoping to use a rag to thin it down. I lost all sense of the Do's and Don'ts of decal finishing and before I knew it, I was scraping up bits of decal everywhere.
So I have ordered a replacement. Now I'm struggling with the idea that it may be futile to risk the same result vs. just leaving the decal exposed on top of the poly. Technically, it would be historically accurate, since I'm replicating an early 60's Strat. But I just can't get by the "incomplete" look of the decal over the poly. So in trying to diagnose what happened, I'm wondering if one of the following factors was the culprit:
1. I should have let the decal cure more than 2-3 days, and the poly got under it due to the adhesive being green.
2. It was a cheap decal, and no matter what, the poly would have melted it, and it will happen again.
3. The poly being laid on way too heavy softened the decal, and the manual wiping with the cloth trying to smooth the wrinkles finished it off. Possibly a thin layer at a time, and it dosen't become too soft and holds up to the poly.
Footnote, I had a cheaper decal I used as a test on scrap wood, and it held the poly no problems. This decal seemed so much better made I'm baffled.
Sorry for the long post, any input is appreciated.
|
|
|
|
Post by funkykikuchiyo on Sept 19, 2021 15:20:10 GMT -5
Well, I'm not sure how any decal behaves when using a wipe on. It is possible that the solvents in the poly are turning the decal to goo, and while it would happen with a spray, since there is little to no physical agitation when spraying it just sits and rehardens as the poly hardens and the solvents disappear. A cheaper decal might be using more modern materials which are chemically more stable, so that is an option. I'd call that a variation of option 3, though the heaviness of the application isn't the issue here.
I'm fuzzy on the details, but I know Fender had issues with decals for a stretch of time when switching to poly which is why lots of '70s pegheads will be cheeto orange while the backs are a light tan - they were giving a light spray with lacquer to help with the decals. This doesn't help us (lacquer has way more solvents in its wet state than wipe-on poly), but might be a clue that older style decals were finnicky.
Come to think of it, there are more than enough solvents in spray lacquer to melt plastic binding, and a similar thing probably happens there - since it just sits untouched it just hardens back again and no one is the wiser.
|
|
|
|
Post by Leftee on Sept 19, 2021 16:08:41 GMT -5
Is this a water-slide decal?
Like Funky said… spray on. That is all I’ve ever done over any sort of decal. Both lacquer or poly. But it might have been that decal too. Cab the maker of it advise?
|
|
Wrnchbndr
Wholenote
Posts: 353
Formerly Known As: WRNCHBNDR
|
Post by Wrnchbndr on Sept 19, 2021 17:20:51 GMT -5
Back in the day I used to see many issues with non-compatible finishes. Not so much anymore. When I make my own decals using an inkjet printer, I seal and protect the ink from the printer with spray shellac. Shellac is really good as a base for most finishes but if there is a component of your poly that will soften what ever sealant your decal maker is using, wipe-on poly isn’t the way to go. It depends on how your decal was made.
|
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 20, 2021 8:09:18 GMT -5
What I would do is hit the wood with a coat of spray shallac, let dry, and then apply the decal. Give that 24 hours to dry, and then follow with several mist coats of spray shellac with dry time between. Apply the mist coats so lightly that there's no gloss on the surface. Once you get five or six mist coats on, follow with your poly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Leftee on Sept 20, 2021 9:01:11 GMT -5
Shellac is awesome.
|
|
|
|
Post by jonnyblooz on Sept 20, 2021 21:06:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the input guys. The seller tried to answer, but didn't make a whole lot of sense. He clearly said: "Minwax NO", so I'm not sure if that means no poly, or no Minwax brand, but my other decals had no issues on test boards. He said after applying decal - "Thin coat of paint (sparse)". I assume he meant some sort of spray lacquer or shellac. I really don't know, but it seems consistent with the above comments.
So follow up question: My understanding is that back in the early 60's, Fender put decals on top of the lacquer and left it. I know that subjects it to damage. I felt like it looked kinda bush league to not poly over it, but if it is historically accurate, would you leave it and be done with it?
|
|
|
|
Post by Leftee on Sept 21, 2021 9:11:45 GMT -5
IMO…
It’s already a step away from historically accurate by not using lacquer. I’d probably poly over it. But I would do as Geno describes above… applying shellac.
|
|
|
|
Post by hushnel on Sept 21, 2021 10:38:59 GMT -5
I’ve made decals printed on waterslide decal paper, useing the process that Peegoo mentioned. I had no problems. I let every thing dry before and during the top coats.
|
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 21, 2021 13:04:54 GMT -5
The problem with the "authentic" method is the decal will get damaged and parts will go missing.
The reason Fender switched and did it this way for a while was to save on production costs. Don't 'cheap out' unless you have to in order to survive.
|
|
mroulier
Wholenote
Chemo'd and Radiated!
Posts: 155
|
Post by mroulier on Oct 15, 2021 9:10:09 GMT -5
Quick question...so spray shellac like Zinsser Bulls Eye?
|
|
|
|
Post by Leftee on Oct 15, 2021 9:12:12 GMT -5
Quick question...so spray shellac like Zinsser Bulls Eye? Yes. That’s what I use. A good mask like a well-fitted P95 is essential. |
|
mroulier
Wholenote
Chemo'd and Radiated!
Posts: 155
|
Post by mroulier on Oct 18, 2021 14:07:35 GMT -5
I was gonna put a sicker on my Warmoth build, but they're out of stock. So bad news/good news: I can't put a decal on my Warmoth build (boo!), but I also cannot screw up a $500 neck by trying (yay!)!
|
|
argo
Wholenote
Posts: 393
|
Post by argo on Aug 14, 2022 12:26:02 GMT -5
What I would do is hit the wood with a coat of spray shallac, let dry, and then apply the decal. Give that 24 hours to dry, and then follow with several mist coats of spray shellac with dry time between. Apply the mist coats so lightly that there's no gloss on the surface. Once you get five or six mist coats on, follow with your poly. Will this process work with a headstock painted with black lacquer rattle can? |
|
|
|
Post by LVF on Aug 14, 2022 19:41:49 GMT -5
Don't know if this will help but, I did a repair on my PRS because the 'noodle' logo they used kept detaching so, did a refinish of the head stock and used a decal that was similar in appearance to the 'noodle' version. After sanding down, I used Minwax Clear Aerosol Lacquer [gloss] for the finish. I did a similar approach for the decal as you attempted. Put down a couple of coats, applied the decal and then put down another couple of coats of the Lacquer. It was possible to do this within a couple of hours as this lacquer requires only a half hour between coatings. You can see in the photo, a progressive look, from start to finish. The last photo is how it looked after about three years. You may not want the aged look like I have and I have no idea about how it can be prevented using the lacquer I used but, it worked out well for my PRS as it matches the finish on the body.  |
|
|
|
Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Aug 14, 2022 22:27:31 GMT -5
What I would do is hit the wood with a coat of spray shallac, let dry, and then apply the decal. Give that 24 hours to dry, and then follow with several mist coats of spray shellac with dry time between. Apply the mist coats so lightly that there's no gloss on the surface. Once you get five or six mist coats on, follow with your poly. Will this process work with a headstock painted with black lacquer rattle can? Yes, but: the way to proceed is to de-gloss the surface by gently sanding the face of the headstock with 400-grit paper. This gives the clear coat some 'tooth' to grip. If you leave it glossy and shoot clear over it, chances are good the new finish will flake off. However, if the original lacquer is nitro (and you're certain it is) you can shoot new nitro over it and the new finish will melt into the original finish. |
|
