TBird
Wholenote
Posts: 298
Formerly Known As: greg1948
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Post by TBird on Jan 26, 2020 11:23:31 GMT -5
My bandmate claims to have much experience in setting up PA's, so I let him set up my small Mackie mixer last Friday. The mixer does not have master EQ, only Low/Mid/High settings on each channel. First thing he did was dial down the mids saying that the mids caused a muddy sound. That runs contrary to what I've read about sound reinforcement. To my ear, the vocals were not clear at all. Raising the volume only got feedback started. So, how do my fellow Moe's sound guys set up the system EQ?
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Post by ninworks on Jan 26, 2020 13:11:31 GMT -5
You really need a master eq on the mains output. Preferably something with a lot of frequency bands. Use that to tune the room then set up the channel eq's to fix individual problems.
I did FOH sound on the southwest circuit for 5 years. I have set up PA's in too many different venues to count. I have tried pink noise and reference mics but, on an empty room, without a crowd in it, the acoustics are so different, it doesn't work very well. Every single time I spent all day pink noising the room I would always have to set the master eq back to flat and tune it by ear because it sounded awful when the bands were playing. I always had the best luck using a CD of a track I'm familiar with and then getting a rough tune on the room with that. Then have the band do a sound check after I had was satisfied with the results. I always, and I mean ALWAYS, had to do some tweaking on the master eq when the audience arrived and the band started playing. The acoustics change and the bands always played differently at sound check than they did with an audience which also altered the sound.
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Juice N
Quarternote
I’m just a dude, playing a dude, pretending to be some other dude
Posts: 27
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Post by Juice N on Jan 26, 2020 17:05:37 GMT -5
You really need a master eq on the mains output. Preferably something with a lot of frequency bands. Use that to tune the room then set up the channel eq's to fix individual problems. I did FOH sound on the southwest circuit for 5 years. I have set up PA's in too many different venues to count. I have tried pink noise and reference mics but, on an empty room, without a crowd in it, the acoustics are so different, it doesn't work very well. Every single time I spent all day pink noising the room I would always have to set the master eq back to flat and tune it by ear because it sounded awful when the bands were playing. I always had the best luck using a CD of a track I'm familiar with and then getting a rough tune on the room with that.Then have the band do a sound check after I had was satisfied with the results. I always, and I mean ALWAYS, had to do some tweaking on the master eq when the audience arrived and the band started playing. The acoustics change and the bands always played differently at sound check than they did with an audience which also altered the sound. I generally use a reference track to try and get close too. Human bodies soak up a ton of sound and it’s amazing how different the room will sound empty. To the OP, without a master EQ you’re not going to be able to do much other than tweak each input. On a mixer like yours, I would start with everything flat and take it from there. Does your mixer have sweepable mids? That gives you a little more flexibility. |
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Post by roly on Jan 26, 2020 18:03:54 GMT -5
If your mixer has a fixed three stage EQ, the mid centre frequency is probably 2.5k or somewhere in that area.
So....if I am right, cutting the mids will remove clarity, not improve clarity.
One should have a 1/3 octave or four stage fully parametric EQ in line after the mixer output.
If your mixer has built in power amps and no insert points, you are hopped unless you use one of these quick and dirty tricks
Trick one.
1 Pan all but one channel hard left.
2 Connect the left main out (if it exists) NOT the left main speaker out to an external EQ. If your mixer doesn't have non powered main outs you are again hooped.
3 Stick the EQ out into the remaining channel and pan it hard right.
4 Use the right main as your main out. The channel panned hard right becomes a sub master with a three stage EQ.
Trick two.
If your mixer has preamp out and power amp in jacks, stick the external EQ in line between the two points.
Both options will cost you one internal power amp unless you have two external EQs, in which case trick two can be used on the left and right pre out/amp in points.
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Post by oldfartbassplayrwalt on Jan 27, 2020 19:42:33 GMT -5
"cutting the mids "
isn't the 'smiley face' EQ setting (hi bass, low mid, high treble) considered
wrong nowadays, especially for live performance?
My Praise band setup was pretty simple- live drums, so we balanced the acoustic guitar rhythm and bass to support it to sound good as a rhythm section. Then the vocals got put on top, no sweat since we were folk-rocky. Lead guitar was good about phasing in and out when needed.
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Post by oldfartbassplayrwalt on Jan 27, 2020 19:44:46 GMT -5
this post got me remembering to when my Praise band asked a friend whose mouth was bigger than his abilities to be our sound man. We played half of a coffee house gig powered by our monitors, because he didn't realize he forgot to turn the mains on.  he didn't last too long... |
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TBird
Wholenote
Posts: 298
Formerly Known As: greg1948
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Post by TBird on Jan 28, 2020 8:07:18 GMT -5
If your mixer has a fixed three stage EQ, the mid centre frequency is probably 2.5k or somewhere in that area. So....if I am right, cutting the mids will remove clarity, not improve clarity. That's what I thought! |
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Fat Tony
Quarternote
Posts: 20
Formerly Known As: Tony Wright
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Post by Fat Tony on Jan 28, 2020 18:05:38 GMT -5
Use your ears. Start your individual channel EQ (called parametric EQ) "around" 12 o'clock on the dial. Start with your graphic EQ dead center flat. Smiley face is NOT the best way to go.
Now listen to each performer. IF they sound good, leave your hands in your pocket. If they could use a little more high end, or maybe they are to "muddy"...then you would want to cut some of the mids. If the bottom end or low frequencies were too thick and overpowered the rest of the sound, cut some of the low frequencies on that control knob.
Running bass or heavy low end thru the PA? Bass drum? Acoustic/electric guitar? Keyboard? All of that? Then you might want to boost a little on the low frequencies via graphic EQ since the issue is "system wide" and not a single instrument. If you can tell that Bubba has way too much low end...then dial down his channel low frequencies and leave Ringo and Eric and Bubba alone on their channel/parametric EQ and on the graphic EQ.
The channel EQ is "parametric" usually with "High, Mid and Low" while the system EQ is "graphic" with all those little faders.
But the important thing is to USE YOUR EARS. If it sounds "good enough" then work on the next new song. If something needs to be addressed on the PA, one person should reach over and make the adjustment. If it takes a lot of "heavy handed adjusting" (example: all the low frequencies cut out on the parametric EQ) Then it is time to consider changing the instrument settings on the instrument, not the PA.
This ain't rocket science...just use your ears. Ask the others in the room if they agree. "Yep! Cletus is just too bright, cutting thru my ears like a high speed drill at the Dentist." Then perhaps you need to cut some of Cletus' highs on the mixer. But as long as Ringo and Eric and Bubba are OK, leave the parametric EQ alone.
Don't trust your ears? Don't trust Bubba and Cletus? (I don't blame you.) Download a free "real time analyzer" on your cell phone and use it to help you find the peak that causes that "ice pick in the ear" you are hearing. If you can't cut the problem frequency via the channel EQ, go to the graphic EQ.
I promise, you are as good as anybody in this game. Get comfortable at this and you will go out and buy your own PA, then fire the rest of the band and hire out as a semi pro sound tech. (Just kidding. I am deaf in one ear and have significant tinnitus in my good ear. But it is still rock and roll to me.)
Use your ears, and trust in the force, young Jedi.
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he didn't last too long...