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Post by modbus on Jan 31, 2020 21:40:46 GMT -5
I have on old (1997), bone-stock HRD with the FMIC speaker made by Eminence.
The thing is a turd.
What's the best, easiest way to make it sound good? Replace the speaker? Do a couple board mods? Buy the 'Supreme' mod kit from Fromel and have at it?
What did you do to make yours sound good?
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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 1, 2020 2:52:59 GMT -5
I returned with JJ gold pins, replaced the speaker with a C12N, and turned the bias up about 8%. Really very happy with it. I use it as a clean platform with an Xotic AC on constantly at a low gain setting, either pedals used as needed.
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Post by modbus on Feb 1, 2020 10:15:32 GMT -5
I returned with JJ gold pins, replaced the speaker with a C12N, and turned the bias up about 8%. Really very happy with it. I use it as a clean platform with an Xotic AC on constantly at a low gain setting, either pedals used as needed. I'm going to ask you a lot of questions -- I'm not being a jerk, I just have zero experience modding amps so any information is good information to me. "I returned with JJ gold pins" I actually have done one mod to the amp, I put in a 12AT7 in V1 to improve the low volume response of the amp, which it did, to some extent. Did you stay with 12AX7s, or did you go with lower gain tubes in one or all of the preamp positions? "replaced the speaker with a C12N" Not a Celestion? " turned the bias up about 8%." From 60mV to 68mV? I just got this amp out again after having sat in a closet for about 16 years. It was old and stock, so I always figured I'd leave it alone, but now I really would like to use it. There are tons of mods floating around out there, and I'd like to keep the modding to a minimum while getting the amp to sound the way I like it. For the most part, I like the clean sound, except for how the amp responds to the low E string. The clean tone on the D through high E strings is very nice, but on the low E it hits with this flabby "BLAAUGGGH" tone, if you now what I mean. That's my main complaint, If like to clean up the low end, a lot. The other problem it has is that if I turn up the treble it gets this glassy, static-y hiss. Not white noise, but kind of a shimmery static. If I turn down the treble to 3 or 4 it goes away. At high noon, it's there. Thanks!
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Post by Leftee on Feb 1, 2020 10:46:12 GMT -5
Honestly, if you'd have to pay someone to do deep mods of the amp, you might be best to sell it and buy an amp that is not a turd. IMO, YMMV, etc.
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Post by modbus on Feb 1, 2020 10:49:41 GMT -5
I'm going to do the mods myself.
I have quite a bit of experience working with electronics, just not much with working on guitar amps. Particularly the subjective stuff like XXXXX tubes will give you this kind of tone, while YYYYY tubes give this tone, etc., or, what bias levels people like.
I mostly would like to just clean up the bottom end. In my case, the bass response makes the amp unusable. Other things would be nice, like toning down the reverb as well.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Feb 1, 2020 12:13:05 GMT -5
Before you get out the soldering stick, test that amp with as many other speakers as you can. No need to pull the speaker; simply disconnect it and plug in other speaker cabs or speakers in other combos.
Flabby low end can be the speaker. It could be one of the tubes. It can be a weak output transformer. It may be leaky filter caps/coupling caps.
It's always best to try to isolate the problem first, rather than do monkey-flinging-poo thing to see what sticks to the wall.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 1, 2020 12:21:56 GMT -5
I agree with Goo. Speakers are the best non-invasive mod.
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Post by modbus on Feb 1, 2020 12:46:34 GMT -5
Before you get out the soldering stick, test that amp with as many other speakers as you can. No need to pull the speaker; simply disconnect it and plug in other speaker cabs or speakers in other combos. Flabby low end can be the speaker. It could be one of the tubes. It can be a weak output transformer. It may be leaky filter caps/coupling caps. It's always best to try to isolate the problem first, rather than do monkey-flinging-poo thing to see what sticks to the wall. That's the thing, I don't really have any other speakers that would be appropriate for the amp around to try. To try one, I'd probably have to buy one. It seems like most speaker changes I've seen online have been to some sort of Celestion Greenback type speaker. I haven't seen many folks mention C12N speakers. I did some searching, it looks like the Celestions are more Marshall, and the C12N are more Fender Blackface era? "It's always best to try to isolate the problem first, rather than do monkey-flinging-poo thing to see what sticks to the wall." That's what I'm trying to do, ask around to see what actually has worked for people. It's nice that in a forum like this you can ask follow-up questions. "Flabby low end can be the speaker. It could be one of the tubes. It can be a weak output transformer. It may be leaky filter caps/coupling caps." I've never been very happy with the amp's low end, even when it was new. Assuming the factory QC checks were done correctly, that would probably rule out the output transformer. It is 23 years old now, I suppose the caps could be going bad. There is a popular mod to increase the filter capacitance, and I think that's supposed to improve the low end. Anybody ever do this? It might be a tube. I did replace V1 with an 12AT7 (ECC81 from JJ). That didn't really alter the tone at all, but it did improve the volume response, which was expected. The other two are the original Fender labeled 12AX7s. The power tubes are the original Sovtek 5881WXTs that Fender relabeled.
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Post by modbus on Feb 1, 2020 12:52:52 GMT -5
I'm down with starting with the speaker.
I'm actually pretty happy with the tone of the stock Eminence for 5 out of the 6 strings. The low E though -- it's way louder than the other 5, and sounds hollow without any timbre. It's like the amp is boosting the heck out of the fundamental tone.
I don' think it's how I have my pickups set on the guitar, as I don't have this trouble with any other amp I've ever tried.
EDIT: I did check the bias, it was set at 68mV, which I'm pretty sure is what I had set it at the last time I played around with this amp.
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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 1, 2020 12:59:04 GMT -5
Ok, i dont want to use the quote function so...I wont. I put in a matched set of JJ gold pins. Their site can probably do a better job detailing what they are and are not. No, not a celestion. Jensen c12n. Kind of a throw back but it worked for me. If I recall correctly original bias was not quite 60. But 8% of spec. I tried a little higher and did not like the added buzz. I have not had the other issues you describe. At this point my only complaint is the volume control. I just live with it. Edited to add,oh yeah...the gain and more gain features dont get used because, as they say in France, they blow.
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Post by modbus on Feb 1, 2020 15:09:49 GMT -5
Man... I feel like an idiot.
So, based on the advice here I tried hooking the HRD to a 10" speaker in a Peavey practice amp.
Big difference. Huge difference. The low E sounds normal. I wish I would have tried that years ago.
So now I guess I have to get a better speaker.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 1, 2020 15:17:09 GMT -5
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Post by pcalu on Feb 3, 2020 21:12:54 GMT -5
A couple of things... Not sure modding a HRD is necessary. (I gigged a 2001 HRDeluxe II for years, sold it, and had a HRDeluxe III fall into my lamp on a low budget trade. (I play the snot out of the III)
IMO... Remove all the "Bells & Whistles" & the HRD tone stack design has a lot in common with a Tweed. IMO the Drive channel kinda acts like a Tweed too. i.e. Past a certain point, all it does is compress and sag.
I Use a 12ay7 (what Tweeds use) in V1 and Bias the amp on the hotter side. I have got great results by using just the Drive channel (Not the More Drive) on around 6, then dust the overdrive with some Ts-808 action when needed. Mic'ed through a P.A.. IMO sounds more than serviceable. Although speakers are subjective, I think using a speaker with a narrower frequency range works best with the HRDs. (One doesn't get a big difference in base, mids and treble going from the normal channel to the Drive channel) My Favorite for this amp is the Em Legend 1258 (IMO... there is a proprietary difference to what Eminence made for Fender i.e. OEM special design... same speaker, just richer and better detailed. I too think Sica Jensen's Ri C12N would be another really good choice for a HRD.
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Post by modbus on Feb 4, 2020 9:39:07 GMT -5
I actually ended up ordering a Celestion G12T-75. It's supposed to arrive on Thursday.
I watched a bunch of youtube videos on speaker shootouts. My favorites were vintage EVM12Ls, but that would be pretty silly to put in a HRD. I liked the tone of the G12T-75 pretty well, so I figured I'd give it a try.
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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 4, 2020 12:41:15 GMT -5
Let us know how it works out.
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Post by modbus on Feb 12, 2020 17:09:48 GMT -5
The speaker was delivered last Wednesday, I put it right into the cabinet that night. I've been playing it for a week now. I have to say I like the new tone much better. The general response it a lot "tighter" now than it was with the stock Eminence speaker. I use it exclusively on the Clean channel as either a pedal platform or clean. It still gets overly bass-y if I crank the volume when clean, but I don't usually crank it up that much, as it's way too loud.
I suppose I may try the one mod where you tied the top pin of the Mid pot to the wiper pin, as to reduce the drop resistance that the Bass circuit goes though. As it is now, the Bass circuit drops through the entire 25K Mid pot. With the mod, it drops through whatever you have the Mid pot set to.
I would do it now, but I don't want to pull the circuit board out of the amp, as that is a pain. If it was easy to get to the Pot pins from the topside, I would go ahead and do it, but as it is, I'll wait and see how it goes.
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Post by Cal-Woody on Feb 17, 2020 11:15:18 GMT -5
I have the same year HRD and put in the Texas Heat, 12" 8 ohm. It keeps the Fender vibe and handles the bass easily, through out the volume range. It was quite a few years ago from all the discussions here and that is what I settled on and as per the recommendations here and by others then, it is still the best thing I have done for that amp! One other thing I did was an old RCA/black tube/12AX7 in the V1 position. This tube added such a dimensional and airy quality to the amp, oh and of course, I retubed the power section with JJ's 6L6GC's and rebiased the amp higher. Sonic and powerful!!!
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Feb 19, 2020 6:20:38 GMT -5
...I suppose I may try the one mod where you tied the top pin of the Mid pot to the wiper pin, as to reduce the drop resistance that the Bass circuit goes though. As it is now, the Bass circuit drops through the entire 25K Mid pot. With the mod, it drops through whatever you have the Mid pot set to... That mod increases the range of the bass control, in that it can cut more bottom end out. If you currently set the bass control to minimum and it's still too much bass, then it's worth a try. It's most useful with a bassy cab (obviously!), like a closed back 4x12. With a 12T75 in a small open back combo cab, I wouldn't expect much benefit.
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Post by modbus on Feb 19, 2020 9:03:48 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm sure I'll have to recap the board sometime in the future, as the caps are 23 years old, and I'll probably try the mod then. I'm leery of pulling the board out and risk breaking the ribbon cables if I don't have to. I was wondering about the bias on the 12AT7, which you confirmed is okay in the other thread -- if that needed fixed, I would have recapped and modded now. Since the tube is okay, I'll wait until the caps start failing.
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gunny
Quarternote
Posts: 10
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Post by gunny on May 30, 2020 8:49:55 GMT -5
I used to have that same amp around 1994 when they first came out as Blues Deluxe. Reading all the postings until the one above this, I was going to say that it's due for power supply filter cap change-outs. Do not wait until they fail; that would be a big mistake. There's no biasing involved with 12AX type tubes, only the two power tubes. Reasonable care with ribbon cables should be enough. It's a PITA to pull that amp apart. Next time you do open it, inspect the resistors on the +/-16 Vdc power supplies. They get so hot they often unsolder connections on the board and you get strange channel switching problems. The solution is to unsolder then remount them higher off the surface of the board.
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Post by larryguitar54 on Jun 15, 2020 17:21:30 GMT -5
I think you just have to accept its limitations. It has a sweet spot on the high side which you can EQ to warm it up. It is fine gigging outdoors where you can crank them. But at lower volumes it has that icepick quality that's hard to get away from.
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Post by pcalu on Jun 18, 2020 20:15:46 GMT -5
In the mid-2000s while supporting a family and working a full-time job, there I was with a lone Telecaster and a 2001 HRDeluxe. I had to make the gear work. For about 6 yrs I gigged that HRD to Hell and back. I find all HRD amps to be kinda mismatched when it comes to the bass response in the clean channel vs drive channel. After a few speaker swaps, I got good results using speakers in the range of 80 Hz - 4 kHz. I think that is the key. Anything larger, I never could get the Drive channel to have the same bass response as the Clean channel. And it bugs me if I can't use all the amp. Surprisingly the Stock Fender OEM Eminence speaker is a decent fit for the amp. It's in the range of 80 Hz - 4 kHz. I found playing live... speakers in the 80Hz -4kHz sit really well in the band's mix. Right where the guitar should be. IMO, live... speakers in the 80 Hz - 4 kHz range record really well too. The other thing guitarist forget about... The sound guy is going to buff or nerf your tone according to what's going on with the rest of the band in relation to the dynamics of the venue anyway. So on stage, if I get a decent tone I'm happy. Here is something else I think people get wrong since we are talking HRDs
The MDF cab.
Although Birch or Pine sound better, you just can't beat the consistency of MDF. My vintage amps are fickle when it comes to different venues, I believe some of it has to do with the cabs being pine or birch, which IMO are more susceptible to the venue's temp conditions. I base this off of years of gigging that HRDeluxe, I don't remember it being fickle at all. Drop anywhere and play, I got pretty much the same Fender HRDeluxe tone where ever I was, night after night. MDF isn't the best medium for Cabs, but its probably the most consistent. I still use a HRDeluxe III and because of the MDF consistency, If... I have never gigged that venue, I will go with the HRDeluxe III. (It's also a fun amp to gig/play... a working Man's amp)
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twangmeister
Wholenote
Posts: 349
Formerly Known As: Twangmeister
Age: 72 and fading fast.....
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Post by twangmeister on Jul 24, 2020 21:59:13 GMT -5
I returned with JJ gold pins, replaced the speaker with a C12N, and turned the bias up about 8%. Really very happy with it. I use it as a clean platform with an Xotic AC on constantly at a low gain setting, either pedals used as needed. Yep, pedals. I had a '96 and was quite pleased with the clean tones and tones with pedals. The gain/more gain tone reminded me of dimeing a SF Twin. I also used a home-made Steve Dallman-style volume box to tame the hairtrigger volume control.
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Post by roly on Jul 28, 2020 15:54:02 GMT -5
My method is rather aggressive.
I gut them and build channel 2 of a Vibrolux reverb in the chassis. Fair amount of metal work involved.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jul 31, 2020 12:58:00 GMT -5
At least you're nudging the amp in the direction you want it to go. Keep in mind that unless you're the type that enjoys tweaking amps (that's a valid thing too), there is a point where you go beyond return on investment. You can start changing the circuit, swap in a beefier PT and OT, etc., and in the final analysis you may have been better off unloading the amp and getting one that does what you like right out of the box for less money, sweat, and frustration. Amps are engineered to do what they do within a fairly narrow set of parameters, and it makes little sense to push an amp into territory it wasn't intended to occupy. Tone chasing can be fun, but it can also be expensive and take years off your life
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Post by roly on Aug 5, 2020 1:16:51 GMT -5
No one else believe in gutting those unreliable, only sound good when the planets are aligned things?
:>)
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Aug 5, 2020 9:26:43 GMT -5
Amps are a lot like people. Some people are just innately dysfunctional; they cannot be helped. You try several different things and nothing works. The best place for them is jail, and even they know that.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2020 20:23:37 GMT -5
I love the sound of a G12T-75 in a Fender amp. I've always been frustrated by the common opinion that it is a Marshall-only speaker. I'm betting you're going to like it a lot.
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