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Post by gato on Nov 11, 2023 8:01:03 GMT -5
With the lessening buzz (sorry) about EV cars and trucks these days, I figured electrics amounted to a mere flash in the pan (sorry). Boy, was I wrong! Car makers, foreign and domestic are offering 241 models in the US right now. Ford for instance, has no less than 5 versions of the electric F-150 series of trucks. Some of these have impressive range (over 600 miles), while others just a few hundred. Everybody from Jeep to Cadillac to Range Rover to BMW, is in on the action. www.ev.guide/find-your-ev |
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Post by themaestro on Nov 11, 2023 9:10:48 GMT -5
While I have nothing against EVs, I'm not ready for one. Charging needs to be more ubiquitous, with public charges having the capability to charge ALL makes of EVs.
My other current hangup is the current lithium-ion battery situation. I'm not sure if there is enough lithium around to supply the demand. The other battery issue is fire-- basically once they catch on fire, you basically can't put them out. At least you can't smother the fire because it makes its own oxygen.
I also think that the auto companies are aiming for the wrong market with EVs. What we really need are not big, expensive luxury vehicles, but small, inexpensive 2nd vehicles used for short trips to work and hopping around town for shopping and errands.
I think the idea is good, but like usual, the gov't and companies are pushing the idea hard before the technology and infrastructure issues mature into something sustainable.
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Post by Leftee on Nov 11, 2023 9:34:01 GMT -5
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Post by orrk01 on Nov 11, 2023 11:17:43 GMT -5
Electric cars make no sense in a cold climate like we have here in Minnesota. The already pitiful range they offer can be sliced in half by freezing temps. No thanks.
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Post by Taildragger on Nov 11, 2023 12:50:55 GMT -5
While I have nothing against EVs, I'm not ready for one. Charging needs to be more ubiquitous, with public charges having the capability to charge ALL makes of EVs. My other current hangup is the current lithium-ion battery situation. I'm not sure if there is enough lithium around to supply the demand. The other battery issue is fire-- basically once they catch on fire, you basically can't put them out. At least you can't smother the fire because it makes its own oxygen. I also think that the auto companies are aiming for the wrong market with EVs. What we really need are not big, expensive luxury vehicles, but small, inexpensive 2nd vehicles used for short trips to work and hopping around town for shopping and errands. I think the idea is good, but like usual, the gov't and companies are pushing the idea hard before the technology and infrastructure issues mature into something sustainable.
This post pretty much covers my own thoughts on the topic. |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 11, 2023 13:02:39 GMT -5
I'm not in the market for a car, and certainly not one that expensive, but I wouldn't be shopping for one even if I was.
I'm not convinced they're a net positive for environmentalism. Mining for the batteries is pretty brutal, and we don't know what the end-of-life situation for these is. We were told recycling would come for our compact fluorescent bulbs, but most of those just ended up in the trash. How about those giant batteries? Gas cars burn gas and require oil changes, but other than that are pretty well figured out. Recycling of old parts and disposal of unusable cars/parts is a pretty clean system. Those giant salvage yards may not be very nice to look at, but they're a pretty good testament to conservation.
Charging just isn't keeping up. People I know who have one, either have it as a second vehicle and keep a gas car just in case, or have to VERY carefully plan long trips. Imagine going on a road trip, and if you drive by one exit with a gas station, you're potentially having to get towed because there aren't any more gas stations. And, more stress on the grid will mean more reliance on dirtier power sources for your home power, further negating the environmental benefit.
We know gas cars can have a very long life, and after the luxury buyers of cars sell them when the new car scent wears off, they go onto the used market and serve a different population. I don't see any evidence that we should safely assume this with EVs. This could make the used car market even more strained in the future. If cars suddenly have the obsolescence of a smartphone or TV, that is going to be a serious problem for middle class and working class people. I might be wrong, but we just don't know one way or another yet. Everyone is assuming an EV is going to go 200k+ miles like an old Civic, and there is no good reason to make that assumption right now.
I think everyone is assuming some break through on battery tech is right around the corner, but we've been assuming that for a very, very long time and it hasn't happened. If it happens... then we'll have something worth investing in. But right now, the EVs are more like 8-track, betamax or laserdisk.
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Post by Leftee on Nov 11, 2023 13:22:38 GMT -5
If I were in the market I’d be interested in a hybrid if it suited my needs.
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Post by Opie on Nov 12, 2023 10:22:16 GMT -5
I just read a stat that said less than 5% of EV owners drive one 100% of the time. The other 95% own a conventional car as well.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Nov 12, 2023 11:23:49 GMT -5
My wife and I have a very small "carbon footprint". 2015 Honda CRV with only 80k miles, a home with less than 1700 square ft., I'm retired and she has worked from home for 24 years. We very rarely air travel. My next EV will be a golf cart. In fact when we lived in Florida for 6+ years we probably drove our golf cart more than the car since restaurants and shopping were accessible. At this point its simple economics, I can't afford an EV and at their current stage of development would be problematic for our long annual trips to Michigan. My next contribution to the environment will be a wisp of smoke from the crematorium lol.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Nov 12, 2023 11:55:38 GMT -5
Friend of mine went to visit her son at college. She and her husband made arrangements for a rental car, but when they arrived, they had no more of the car they reserved (typical). So they offered an upgrade at no charge, and one of the options was a Tesla.
They never drove a Tesla before and immediately agreed. Unfortunately, they soon found out that charging it was a huge pain. There is one charger on campus, which you can never get because it’s constantly in use. So, instead of going to sleep at night, they first had to drive to the parking lot of the local supermarket and charge the car for 2 hours so they had enough juice to get wherever they needed to be the next day.
There’s places around here that have the charging stations, they seem to always be available. But l will not be getting an electric car because I don’t need to spend extra time in parking lots when I could be doing other things.
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Post by gato on Nov 12, 2023 12:11:08 GMT -5
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Post by themaestro on Nov 12, 2023 14:19:07 GMT -5
5 minute charging? The article states that their battery sacrifices range for quick-charges, but will charging fast dim the lights for a mile around the charger? You gotta have the capability and infrastructure of getting big slugs of electricity to the charger.
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Post by gato on Nov 12, 2023 14:47:32 GMT -5
5 minute charging? The article states that their battery sacrifices range for quick-charges, but will charging fast dim the lights for a mile around the charger? You gotta have the capability and infrastructure of getting big slugs of electricity to the charger. I read the article to mean that 100 miles could be added to the range in 5 minutes. Not that the car would go only 100 miles. "A battery company called StoreDot may have a solution, though—an extremely f ast charging cell that could add 100 miles (160 km) of range in just five minutes. And its pack will be tested in a Polestar 5" In other words, assume your StoreDot battery till take you 300 miles, but you've gone 100. You could pull in to the station and top off your charge in 5 minutes, taking it back to 300. At least, that's my take on it. |
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Post by themaestro on Nov 12, 2023 18:45:03 GMT -5
My question is still how many kilowatts per hour throughput required to run down the charging cable in order transfer 100 miles of charge in 5 minutes?
I keep seeing something like Dr Frankensteins's lab in order to supply enough power in 5 minutes.
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Post by K4 on Nov 12, 2023 19:32:11 GMT -5
In other words, assume your StoreDot battery till take you 300 miles, but you've gone 100. You could pull in to the station and top off your charge in 5 minutes, taking it back to 300. At least, that's my take on it. My question is still how many kilowatts per hour throughput required to run down the charging cable in order transfer 100 miles of charge in 5 minutes?
The math is pretty easy. If the battery holds 100Kwh of power it can charge to full in one hour with a charge rate of 100Kw's per hour. We will assume zero losses. To charge that battery to full in 1/2 hour we will need a 200Kw charging rate 15 minuets will require 400Kw's 5 min will require 1200Kw's. This is charge rate or the amount of power being drawn off the grid. Now if the charging station has 10 of these chargers....... Now multiply this by several hundred for a small city and we have black outs. For this to work we will need power plants every 25 square miles... I made up this number but it will be lots of them. Windmills and solar panels won't cut it. |
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Post by gato on Nov 13, 2023 5:43:31 GMT -5
In other words, assume your StoreDot battery till take you 300 miles, but you've gone 100. You could pull in to the station and top off your charge in 5 minutes, taking it back to 300. At least, that's my take on it. My question is still how many kilowatts per hour throughput required to run down the charging cable in order transfer 100 miles of charge in 5 minutes?
The math is pretty easy. If the battery holds 100Kwh of power it can charge to full in one hour with a charge rate of 100Kw's per hour. We will assume zero losses. To charge that battery to full in 1/2 hour we will need a 200Kw charging rate 15 minuets will require 400Kw's 5 min will require 1200Kw's. This is charge rate or the amount of power being drawn off the grid. Now if the charging station has 10 of these chargers....... Now multiply this by several hundred for a small city and we have black outs. For this to work we will need power plants every 25 square miles... I made up this number but it will be lots of them. Windmills and solar panels won't cut it. I yield. I still struggle with long division. |
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Post by ninworks on Nov 14, 2023 7:40:32 GMT -5
In order for electric vehicles to become viable they are going to have to be able to generate their own power onboard. Maybe not all of it but a high percentage. Current technology isn't there yet. There will have to be a huge technological breakthrough for that to happen. IMO, at this point some kind of alternative-fueled hybrid is the only reasonable solution. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe but is highly explosive and difficult to store safely, but would seem to be the obvious solution. The tech is just not there yet.
I think the non-emission idea is a good one but it's a smoke screen at this point because it's simply not true. What they are trying to do with electric vehicles is to devalue fossil fuels so we aren't dependent on them. I get it but IMO, even if it does get to the point where that happens, whatever takes it's place will be just as expensive/valuable.
Just don't tell me electric cars have zero emissions. Poppychicken! They may not be coming out of the vehicle directly, but they are still being generated as a by-product of power generation and manufacturing. The industry must think we are really stupid to keep telling us that. I certainly don't buy it.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Nov 14, 2023 8:25:47 GMT -5
No expert here, but memory tells me that “fast charge” reduces the life expectancy of the battery.
Maybe someone here knows for sure about that.
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Post by themaestro on Nov 14, 2023 10:03:58 GMT -5
Re: the 5 minute EV charge. Aussie car guy John Cadogan really doesn't like Storedot. The link below is a Youtube video. Caution, it contains non-nude women, sexual innuendo and bad language.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Nov 14, 2023 15:18:20 GMT -5
The infrastructure isn't there. Not enough charging stations. Not enough transmit facilities to get the electricity to supply the demand at a "station" and not enough to supply all the houses when EV's are the dominant vehicle type. Not enough electricity generating capability to supply it if we could get it where it needs to be.
When 80% of the cars are EVs, we're gonna be in a serious bind.
Whole house generators will skyrocket so that people can charge their cars.
All this and I'm still not convinced they're better for the environment than gas cars when you consider the overall impact of both: production of raw materials, transport of materials, resource to build, resources to ship the final product, resources to operate and resources to properly dispose of the product when it reaches end of life.
Definitely not ready for primetime yet the government is forcing it on us.
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Post by Leftee on Nov 14, 2023 20:10:22 GMT -5
It’ll all come out in the wash.
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Post by K4 on Nov 14, 2023 20:47:20 GMT -5
I saw a news report over in London the charging stations are having to hire security to keep people from beating the crap out of each other. Imagine what will happen here when the lines for chargers are 5 cars deep and a min of 30 minuets per car.
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