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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 13, 2024 6:11:31 GMT -5
A question about stolen valor and it has nothing to do with anyone here; it does, I think, have something to do with someone here in real life.
There's a guy I know who is a braggart and one of the things he brags about is his military service. I'm positive he hasn't done many of the things he claims and this bugs me.
I googled stolen valor and the definition that seems to be the most accurate states that a person can't claim a rank or medals that they haven't earned but it doesn't seen to include other things like "I was on the 'kill Osama mission'". Or I was a CIA plant in Iraq.". But nothing about medals or rank just gobity goop lies.
Things like this really bother me and one of these days someone is going out this guy in his place. So my question is this: is this guys bragging illegal? I don't wish to see him in trouble, I would rather like to see him stop this business. So the question is: is his bragging about things he's not done considered stolen valor?
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Post by gato on Jan 13, 2024 7:55:54 GMT -5
What I found:
The 2013 Medal of Valor law identifies several specific military awards that it is illegal to claim with intent to gain benefits
(The intent to get money, property or some other benefit by making the false claim in doing so.)
They include:
Medal of Honor
Distinguished Service Cross
Navy Cross
Air Force Cross
Silver Star
Bronze Star
Purple Heart
Combat Action Ribbon
Combat Infantryman’s Badge
Combat Action Badge
Combat Medical Badge
Combat Action Medal
Replacement or duplicate medals “for such medal as authorized by law”
The penalties for stolen valor under the 2013 act can include fines and/or up to six months imprisonment.
Apparently, just bragging about non-existent military service is no more criminal than the fishing story about "the one that got away."
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 13, 2024 9:33:32 GMT -5
He does this to get some kind of ill gotten respect from everyone and specifically to help him get laid. That's pretty much the deal with this guy.
That's for the info Gato.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Jan 13, 2024 10:23:28 GMT -5
Either way, the guy sounds like a loser. My only advice would be that one should make sure they are correct before confronting someone about something like this. I’m not sure how one would be so certain, having not been there, but you certainly sound like you are.
It would be fun if you happened to see him putting the moves on a lady and you interjected and he was unable to defend his position though.
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Post by Leftee on Jan 13, 2024 10:40:33 GMT -5
He’s a person I would give a wide berth.
Seeing that he’s not doing anything illegal (albeit dishonest) I’d leave it be.
$.02
It’s not like anything that could be done would change the situation.
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Post by Leftee on Jan 13, 2024 10:44:32 GMT -5
This saying fits.
“When you wrestle the pig there are only two outcomes. You get dirty and the pig likes it.”
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Post by Mfitz804 on Jan 13, 2024 11:48:46 GMT -5
This saying fits. “When you wrestle the pig there are only two outcomes. You get dirty and the pig likes it.” I think we have different sayings in Ny than the ones you have there. |
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Post by RufusTeleStrat on Jan 13, 2024 12:02:11 GMT -5
I here these stories all the time from many of the clients that call me. If everyone of the guys who claim were part of SOG or pre seals or whatever group in the military were prosecuted there would be no room in prisons for dangerous criminals. I get that some want to inflate the importance of what they did, even though the closest they got to combat was the movies in the mess hall, but it is what it is.
The best story I had was some elderly lady who claimed to be engaged to so and so general yet I know for a fact that they are either married or dead. Dementia is a terrible disease.
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Post by gato on Jan 13, 2024 13:07:15 GMT -5
I attended a function once years ago, (Optimist Club) where the keynote speaker wore a Class A Army uniform, rank of sergeant, with an impressive cluster of ribbons and badges affixed. He spoke of his service in Vietnam as an MP at some length. From where I was seated, I could see that among his awards was the Combat Infantryman's Badge. This aroused some suspicion for me, as I knew that unless your military MOS was infantry, you could not be awarded the CIB.
At the break and conclusion of his talk, I stood on the periphery of the well wishers, listening to his personal anecdotes about his tour in "the Nam".
The more I heard, the more convinced I became that this guy was a fraud ... or at least that his "soldiering" had never seen him serving in Vietnam.
He reminded me of the graduates of Army Basic Training, who, before they head home for a few weeks of leave, stop off at the PX first, and buy every pin, ribbon and decoration they can find, to enhance their Class A uniform for showing off in front of the relatives in Corndog, Iowa.
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Post by RufusTeleStrat on Jan 13, 2024 14:04:54 GMT -5
This is to be contrasted to my Father in law, and my own father who both had multiple Purple heart awards and in my fathers case multiple awards of the air medal including multiple oak leaf clusters, but I never new about any of this until he passed and found it in a drawer. The majority of the WWII vets I knew never spoke of it other than to say I served. I lived. I came home and carried on.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Jan 13, 2024 14:15:04 GMT -5
This is to be contrasted to my Father in law, and my own father who both had multiple Purple heart awards and in my fathers case multiple awards of the air medal including multiple oak leaf clusters, but I never new about any of this until he passed and found it in a drawer. The majority of the WWII vets I knew never spoke of it other than to say I served. I lived. I came home and carried on. Thats exactly how my grandfather handled it. |
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Post by Leftee on Jan 13, 2024 14:18:24 GMT -5
This saying fits. “When you wrestle the pig there are only two outcomes. You get dirty and the pig likes it.” I think we have different sayings in Ny than the ones you have there. Local experiences provide the color. |
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Post by K4 on Jan 13, 2024 15:08:29 GMT -5
So does getting it on with the wimmens constitute a benefit?
I lost a job due to the new boss claiming to be a Navy Seal, wore the Rolex and bragged highly.
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Post by Taildragger on Jan 13, 2024 15:50:48 GMT -5
This is to be contrasted to my Father in law, and my own father who both had multiple Purple heart awards and in my fathers case multiple awards of the air medal including multiple oak leaf clusters, but I never new about any of this until he passed and found it in a drawer. The majority of the WWII vets I knew never spoke of it other than to say I served. I lived. I came home and carried on.
I've seen my dad's WWII military record, so I know when he was where and doing what. He saw plenty of combat, but would only talk about it briefly and in general terms if asked. I can't remember a single time that he ever brought it up himself.
I had an uncle, on the other hand, who saw little if any actual combat but was a real blowhard. Later, in civilian life, he even had personal stationary printed up with his name preceded with his final Army rank on the letterhead. He also had professional portraits of himself in uniform on prominent display in his home. I wouldn't call any of that "stolen valor", but it certainly betrays a lack of personal modesty and humility at best and an excess of pompous, severely-overstated self aggrandizement at worst.
In my experience, most of the guys whose actual service records would prompt us to call them "heroes" would reply in a self-deprecating way that (sorry to use this cliche, but it's apt) "the real heroes are the guys who didn't make it home". IMHO, it's to that latter group that the whole "stolen valor" phenomenon constitutes the gravest insult.
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 13, 2024 16:49:33 GMT -5
That reminds of a 60 Minutes segment where they interviewed the soldiers from the 3rd U.S. Infantry Regiment who stand guard over the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
Apparently, they are the object of journalistic obsession and decided to give 1 and only 1 interview and they decided to give it to 60 Minutes.
During the interview, one of the soldiers basically said "Please, make no mistake about why you're here. We know you want to know about us and we'll share that with you but the real reason you are here is to let all journalists know that we will NOT EVER give another interview to anyone. What we did before becoming a guard is no ones business and what we do here is no ones business. The soul focus is on the unknown. Not us. Ever. This is the only interview" and he made whoever was interviewing him that they would not edit anything. 5hey agreed and that was their last interview.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Jan 13, 2024 17:37:36 GMT -5
We see it locally with 9/11 first responders as well. While most police and fire guys were down there, some were not. I know one guy in particular who refers to himself as a 9/11 first responder, and his job at that time was directing traffic in Times Square, nowhere near the actual site. He was never at the actual site.
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Post by Leftee on Jan 13, 2024 18:54:14 GMT -5
I’m a USAF veteran. At most my valor is rented.
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Post by jonnyblooz on Jan 13, 2024 20:42:19 GMT -5
I'll never forget the time I was waiting to get a haircut, and an elderly gentleman came in. He sat next to me and I noticed a 101st Airborne pin hammered into his cane. I acknowledged his service and made sure he knew how much I admired him for it. He proceeded to tell me of his exploits in the Korean war. He was captured and imprisoned, but led an escape and took his fellow POW's to freedom and earning the Congressional Medal of Honor. I was duly impressed, and just then my name was called, and I deferred to the gentleman to go in front of me. He thanked me and as he got up, I shook his hand and asked his name. I quickly jotted it down on my bookmark as I wanted to remember him.
There is a directory online of all MOH recipients...............His name was not on it. Nor did Google yield any dramatic POW escape stories from the Korean war.
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 13, 2024 20:54:46 GMT -5
I'll never forget the time I was waiting to get a haircut, and an elderly gentleman came in. He sat next to me and I noticed a 101st Airborne pin hammered into his cane. I acknowledged his service and made sure he knew how much I admired him for it. He proceeded to tell me of his exploits in the Korean war. He was captured and imprisoned, but led an escape and took his fellow POW's to freedom and earning the Congressional Medal of Honor.His name was not on it. Nor did G. oogle yield any dramatic POW escape stories from the Korean war. MN, that would be disturbing. We had a barbershop thread going on a month or so ago and I made mention of our towns new, and only, barber. I went in for a haircut and he said $10. I said, I'm over 60 so it's $15. "Aren't you a vet?" "Wish I could say that I was...." I gave him a $20. Sometimes you can tell when you meet a good guy, and he's one. |
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Post by Ragtop on Jan 14, 2024 6:23:54 GMT -5
Back in the mid-90s, I was in Norfolk, VA on business. I ended up- long story- getting a bow-to-stern tour of the USS Enterprise, which was in port. It was an absolutely fascinating 5 hours, one of the best days of my career. At the end of the tour I bought one of those blue navy caps with the ship's name embroidered on the front from the ship's store as a souvenir. It was very cool, and I would wear it once in a while.
Fast-forward to a few years ago. Thanking veterans and first responders with a "thank you for your service" had become a common thing to do.
I was at our little grocery store and had that cap on. I ran into a guy and know, and we stood there chatting for a few minutes. During those minutes, I had 4-5 people walk by and say "thank you for your service" because of the cap. A couple of them shook my hand. I felt like a complete fraud. So now I never wear the hat, except maybe to walk the dog around my deserted neighborhood.
But it's cool that people want to say "thanks" like that.
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Post by Laker on Jan 14, 2024 8:24:30 GMT -5
I'll never forget the time I was waiting to get a haircut, and an elderly gentleman came in. He sat next to me and I noticed a 101st Airborne pin hammered into his cane. I acknowledged his service and made sure he knew how much I admired him for it. He proceeded to tell me of his exploits in the Korean war. He was captured and imprisoned, but led an escape and took his fellow POW's to freedom and earning the Congressional Medal of Honor. I was duly impressed, and just then my name was called, and I deferred to the gentleman to go in front of me. He thanked me and as he got up, I shook his hand and asked his name. I quickly jotted it down on my bookmark as I wanted to remember him. There is a directory online of all MOH recipients...............His name was not on it. Nor did Google yield any dramatic POW escape stories from the Korean war. There was a medic I served with in Vietnam who was awarded the Medal of Honor, Charles Hagemeister, who was a SPC4 then and retired from the Army as a Lt Colonel before passing away in 2021. By the way, I have a CIB and I never had an infantry MOS. I also was awarded the Air Medal for completing a minimum of 25 combat air-assaults (jumping off a Huey) but, because I didn’t have an infantry MOS, it was awarded for “one hundred direct support missions”. The Army works in mysterious ways. |
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 14, 2024 8:50:29 GMT -5
Back in the mid-90s, I was in Norfolk, VA on business. I ended up- long story- getting a bow-to-stern tour of the USS Enterprise, which was in port. It was an absolutely fascinating 5 hours, one of the best days of my career. At the end of the tour I bought one of those blue navy caps with the ship's name embroidered on the front from the ship's store as a souvenir. It was very cool, and I would wear it once in a while. Fast-forward to a few years ago. Thanking veterans and first responders with a "thank you for your service" had become a common thing to do. I was at our little grocery store and had that cap on. I ran into a guy and know, and we stood there chatting for a few minutes. During those minutes, I had 4-5 people walk by and say "thank you for your service" because of the cap. A couple of them shook my hand. I felt like a complete fraud. So now I never wear the hat, except maybe to walk the dog around my deserted neighborhood. But it's cool that people want to say "thanks" like that. I understand. One of the very best documentaries is called "Carrier" and it's a part documentary and life on the USS Nimitz. It streams on the PBS app. |
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Post by Vibroluxer on Jan 14, 2024 8:52:34 GMT -5
It would be fun if you happened to see him putting the moves on a lady and you interjected and he was unable to defend his position though. And Id be just the person to blow his cover. To me, it just needs to be done. |
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Post by Leftee on Jan 14, 2024 14:37:35 GMT -5
I used to be a “it needs to be done, and I’m the guy to do it” person. I’ve stepped back from that in recent years.
I consider the outcome. If I sense that my saying something is more about me than the person, I leave it be. If the person isn’t going to receive what I say, I don’t go there.
These days I strive to say something only out of a desire to help. If I’m not going to achieve that with my message and/or delivery, I leave it alone.
This is me - today. I’m a work in progress.
😊
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Post by Mike the marksman on Jan 15, 2024 8:36:39 GMT -5
The worst offenders are people who did actually serve- not for very long and not in a "high speed" capacity, but they know enough to lie convincingly (at least enough for civilians who don't know any better). I work in an industry with alot of military veterans and I hear all kinds of wild stuff. Alot of people who served for 3-4 years and hated every second of it, but now that they're a civilian they make the military their entire personality.
I've met more "infantrymen" in the civilian world than I ever did on active duty..
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Post by WireDog on Jan 15, 2024 9:17:56 GMT -5
I shared a lot of stories with you guys and gals over the years, sometimes in real time, but only the ones where I had the pictures to prove it.
As a retiree living near Ft. Bragg, I’m surrounded by both vets and Active Duty military. The guys I jam with and my guitar students are all military. We almost never talk about our war experiences.
With you all, guitar was a lifeline that the FDP threw out there and I was very grateful. In return, I saw an opportunity to share a heavily edited birds-eye view of what was going down in Iraq from the eyes of a common communications tech.
I left that life fifteen years ago and it has thankfully faded far back into the corners of my mind. Occasionally it bubbles up and I share it here and with my brothers. It’s kind of burdensome to carry, and when I feel the need to let out a story, I just do so, like releasing pressure from a relief valves.
My father and uncles all served in WW II, and rarely spoke of it. Also, they drank like fishes, as did their friends, so there’s that.
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Post by ninworks on Jan 15, 2024 10:15:04 GMT -5
Also, they drank like fishes, as did their friends, so there’s that. I think that some of that was just a by product of military culture. Young men, many away from home for the first time, feeling their oats, but who am I to say. I'm sure some of them did it as a distraction from the horrors as well. I never served so that is just my inexperienced opinion. |
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Jan 15, 2024 15:54:34 GMT -5
My mom dated a guy after her second divorce who was a huge braggart. He had all these stories about how he was in the special forces, was in the CIA and stuff like that. We didn't put any effort into trying to vet anything he said because it was so outlandish that it was like something from a movie. Plus, the people I know who've done anything like that don't talk about it much if at all.
The reality was that he was buying cheap chinese scam crap and selling it on ebay. Stuff like a magnet thing you put on your gas tank to increase your gas mileage or a bracelet that makes you more athletic.
He was a pompous ass and we all hated him. I was really happy when she figured it out though it took much longer than I'd have expected.
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Post by Laker on Jan 15, 2024 20:41:25 GMT -5
My father and uncles all served in WW II, and rarely spoke of it. Also, they drank like fishes, as did their friends, so there’s that. Someone else commented on this statement and I thought I’d toss the Vietnam perspective onto this. When my company came in to base camp for a “stand down” after spending multiple weeks in the boonies (I think there were three in my 12 month tour) it was a TOTAL RELEASE and we partied hard and slept where you fell. Every company in my battalion had its own club and in my company there were two brick buildings, our club and our yellow-brick sh*t-house with the rest of the company housed in general-purpose tents. When I left in ‘67 we had wooden barracks but the club and “latrine” were still there. |
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Post by hushnel on Feb 24, 2024 14:25:58 GMT -5
My dad and uncles were in WWII. Nothing was ever spoken of it. My cousin Tim was so proud of our families in both WWII and WW1, he volunteer for Viet Nam, Tim came home in a box, saddest day of my life, the same day we arrived home of 3 years in Germany, a few days latter we attended Tim’s funeral at Aunt and Uncle Jack’s Church.
Dad went to Collage when he got home from WWII, but soon after he was back in the Army Air Police, it was changed to the OSI in 1947 to the Office of Special Investigations. Strangely enough the change to the OSI was coincidental with the Roswell investigation of the crashed Alien craft. From my birth to the age of 19, I was an Air Force Brat. Mostly dad would find housing off base. We were always near an Air Force bass, in Germany we lived on the Wiesbaden AFB, were Tom and I saw Jimi playing in the basement of the Skyhook Serviceman's Club with some Air Born guys Jimi had served with.
6 years of my early life we live in England and Germany.
Dad’s side of the family is documented arriving to the three rivers area, now known as Pittsburgh, in the mid 1500s. My brother has the documents.
Stolen valor is about as low as it gets.
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