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Post by Mike the marksman on Apr 27, 2021 7:19:20 GMT -5
Building a Mojotone 5F8-A tweed twin kit with a friend. We haven't gotten to wiring the pots and tube sockets yet, but I'm not sure of the best way to go about doing the chassis grounds of the various stages and filter caps. Do I ground directly to the chassis? Run a buss bar across all the pots? Would like to minimize ground loops and noise.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 27, 2021 8:42:46 GMT -5
Michael at Modulus Amps has developed and kindly drawn up an excellent wiring etc layout for a Marshall, it should be fairly simple to apply it to a 5F8A www.mediafire.com/file/arlsw02ata1j12m/Modulus+MR34+Layout.pdf/fileThe download is safe, honest! Personally I don't use the terminology 'grounding', because I think it's something of a misnomer, and leads to confusion and conflation between the amp circuit's 0V common and its mains safety ground chassis connection. The 0V common of the layout above has a single connection to the chassis, at the input jack. That's a guaranteed way to get it right whilst also minimising the risk of RF etc noise entering the chassis. The principal is to keep the HT current loops as short and contained as feasible, reference the grid and cathode 0V common returns of each stage to its HT filter cap's negative terminal. Of course it's quite possible to build a perfectly quiet amp using other schemes, perhaps with multiple connections between the amp's 0V common and the its chassis, such that the chassis is used as a key conductor of its 0V system, that's how Fender did it, right up to the early 80s, even for amps with medium gain overdrive preamps, like my '75'. But if there's a 100 / 120Hz hum, such an arrangement makes it very difficult to track down and resolve. For further reading, see Aiken and Merlin www.aikenamps.com/index.php/groundingwww.valvewizard.co.uk/Grounding.pdf
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Post by Mike the marksman on Apr 27, 2021 11:42:56 GMT -5
Also we had some confusion over how to wire the AC cord. We looked at a few different wiring diagrams and all showed different orientations. The power transformer is a multi-tap unit with foreign voltage windings, White wire for 120V and a single black common wire. We wired both black wires (the AC cord and black PT common) to the fuse, and both white wires (120V PT primary and and white from AC cord) to the power switch. I'm still not fully confident that this is correct.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 27, 2021 14:13:31 GMT -5
Here's the way a modern amp should be wired for maximum safety. AC mains hot wire through the fuse, to the switch, to the PT. AC mains neutral wire direct to the PT. AC mains ground wire to it's own ground directly to the chassis. Some techs recommend soldering rather than affixing the ground wire to a threaded fastener because the fastener can work loose. If you use jam nuts or Loctite it will not work loose. Your call.
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Post by Mike the marksman on Apr 27, 2021 14:22:41 GMT -5
Does it matter which primary wire goes to the switch or to the AC neutral? I've commonly seen the white neutral joined to the black common of the PT in some diagrams.
I soldered the ground wire directly to the chassis with a big Weller soldering gun, for permanence. A solder joint will never work loose:)
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 27, 2021 19:41:15 GMT -5
If there are two black wires coming from the primary side of the PT, there's no polarity. But you mentioned:
"We wired both black wires (the AC cord and black PT common) to the fuse, and both white wires (120V PT primary and and white from AC cord) to the power switch."
You should be connecting your AC power cord to only two wires (not two pairs) from the primary. Do you have a pic of the work? What PT are you using?
If you have other wires off the primary for other mains voltages, you need to insulate the ends and wrap them to keep them out of trouble.
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Post by roly on Apr 28, 2021 0:14:05 GMT -5
"If there are two black wires coming from the primary side of the PT, there's no polarity"....I don't think colors matter when there are only two primary leads.
Line to fuse, fuse to power switch, power switch out to one side of PT primary.(a PT with multiple primary taps may require one to combine PT primary wires to achieve the desired output voltage given the voltage at the wall outlet.), and the remaining wires (if more than one is needed)go to neutral. Pretty sure the PT primary doesn't care which wire sees line or neutral.
I will standby to be corrected.
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Post by Mike the marksman on Apr 28, 2021 7:22:46 GMT -5
This is the transformer in question. The primary wires are.. -Black Com -Black/Blue (100V) -White (120V) -Black/Yellow (220V) -Black/Red (240V) So I'm only concerned with the white and solid black wire. The others are insulated and wrapped. I rewired it last night so that the hot (black) wire from the AC cord goes to the fuse, a jumper from the other side of the fuse to the first leg of the power switch, and the white (120V) wire from the PT to the 2nd leg of the power switch. The white neutral wire from the AC cord is spliced to the black COM wire of the PT and insulated with heat shrink.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 28, 2021 10:07:55 GMT -5
That should be fine. Make sure that the unused primary wires are securely insulated. Also the power cable’s ground wire should have more slack than the live or neutral, so that if the cable retention grip fails, the ground wire is the last to be pulled out.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 28, 2021 19:30:01 GMT -5
This is the transformer in question. The primary wires are.. -Black Com -Black/Blue (100V) -White (120V) -Black/Yellow (220V) -Black/Red (240V) So I'm only concerned with the white and solid black wire. The others are insulated and wrapped. I rewired it last night so that the hot (black) wire from the AC cord goes to the fuse, a jumper from the other side of the fuse to the first leg of the power switch, and the white (120V) wire from the PT to the 2nd leg of the power switch. The white neutral wire from the AC cord is spliced to the black COM wire of the PT and insulated with heat shrink. That's good work!
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Post by Mike the marksman on Apr 29, 2021 8:27:43 GMT -5
PT is all wired and putting out the correct voltages everywhere, so that's sorted.
I have a pretty solid idea of what I'm going to do for grounding. I think I'll have an elevated bus wire off the turret board for the preamp-side and pot grounds, terminating at the input jacks. I've got a terminal strip at the PT mounting bolts for the power-side and output tube grounds.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 29, 2021 13:03:32 GMT -5
... I've got a terminal strip at the PT mounting bolts for the power-side and output tube grounds. Everyone seems to do that. I think it's the worst possible choice but everyone thinks it right because everyone else does it. The guys that design layouts are typically hacks without proper electronics training, but with good graphics skills. Regrettably, it seems to be the case for kit provider documentation too. That's fine for pedal builds but not so much for mains powered gear. PT mounting bolts will tend to loosen, due to the 3 forces of magnostriction, mechanical stress, and the lamination stack compressing over time. Hence they may not maintain a proper chassis connection over time, even if Popeye has eaten extra spinach before he tightens them. Your call, but for goodness sake, don't use a PT fastener for the chassis safety ground! I suggest to connect everything to the bus, along the lines of the layout I linked to earlier. Michael is a highly competent electrical / electronic engineer.
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Post by Mike the marksman on Apr 29, 2021 13:11:44 GMT -5
To the bus it is then:) I didn't necessarily like the idea of stretching wires all the way to the PT bolts anyway, the bus would be the shortest, easiest route.
The only things I have on the PT bolt now are the HV center tap, 6.3V center tap, and the .047uf cap from the standby switch, the safety ground is soldered directly to the chassis.
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stl80
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Post by stl80 on Apr 29, 2021 14:53:39 GMT -5
Good call on not using a PT fastener for a ground. In a UL Listed Industrial Control panel, a ground can serve no other purpose. Jim
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 29, 2021 16:42:13 GMT -5
CT of HT winding, ideally to a HT fuse, then to the -ve terminal of the reservoir cap. That’s the noisiest current loop in the amp. Silicon back up / protection diodes in series with the HT leg feed to each rectifier anode.
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