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Post by larryguitar54 on Feb 11, 2022 22:56:04 GMT -5
So I have been thinking about my amps. I have a couple Fender amps that are low to high power. So I have a Blues Jr, DRRI, Pro Reverb and TRRI. We all agree that any amp needs to have a minimum gain level to really sing. So whatever the amp you want to get it to at least 4 to get it where it is designed.
However.....however the question remains. TRRI at '2' vs a DRRI at '5'? etc?
I am convinced the TRRI at '2' sounds better than any amp at just any volume on any other amp. My ears simply do not lie. I do tend to go with DRRI for gigs because it is practical and sounds really good at 5.
So thoughts? high power amp at low gain vs lower power at higher gain?
The reason for my question is I am thinking of bringing the Twin to my show at a small venue. I will assure everybody I"m not going to make the walls crack. I just want the honking tone that only the big 2 x 12s produce.
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Post by surfbop on Feb 12, 2022 1:26:40 GMT -5
I agree. I have had both amps and even with NOS RCA tubes in the DRRI the TRRI just slays it. The Deluxe is of course lighter but the Twin just sounds great. Thats why you see Twins on the backline of so many working musicians is it's an amp that most always sounds good and is dependable and they take pedals well. Sold the Deluxe and kept the Twin.
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Post by reverendrob on Feb 12, 2022 3:08:42 GMT -5
It's simple, you really can't get the presence of the 6L6 even when you crank the DRRI, let alone the speaker coverage.
If I bother with tubes, I want 6L6 Fender for my happy place.
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Feb 12, 2022 8:13:34 GMT -5
You might be inviting overkill. Two speakers simply move twice as much air as one speaker of the same size.
Sure, they "fill" the room more but there's twice the sound !
But there's lots of fun things to do with a Twin.
For instance, I have removed a speaker to save weight and selected the proper ohms setting. I've put a rock speaker on one side, and a clean speaker on the other and used and a/b switch to select either, or both. I've made a Twin "head" to split the weight up. I mounted an extra EQ in the case for more fun and games. I even mounted 10in speakers in it ! And 6in speakers. And I tried pulling 2 power tubes, and stuck a couple of EL84s in it too. In short, I went a little crazy with it. But that's the kind of guy I am !
You, however, want the full bore TRRI double speaker tone in a small public venue.
I, even as a crazy musician, don't appreciate players blasting their overly loud "tone" at me in a small venue.
I don't care how good they are. I'm out the door and won't be back for that player.
Lord knows good tube tone is a real challenge for everyone.
Tubes just pack a real punch and our modern speakers are too efficient to sound our best at lower volume.
And you want to hit a small venue with TWO efficient speakers ?
In marketing class there is a saying, "Never advertise a bad product".
An audience with hurt ears probably won't be back.
And I think this is exactly why live music in small venues was struggling(pre-Pandemic).
I bet 90 percent of possible music venues are SMALL. But our amps, speakers, and rather pointedly...our DRUMS...are too powerful.
After watching a jazzy group use a half-size drumset so the bass and guitar didn't need to be so loud for a balanced sound, I'm convinced live musicians have been sold "stadium sized" equipment for too long and really need to downsize the DRUMS for small venues.
This would hopefully force a reset by the rest of the musicians to match their volume to the smaller drums, and audiences won't have to wear earplugs or risk ear damage to hear live bands in small venues.
I'm pretty sure this will be a feature of the future, because who wants to go to a bar where they can't talk to anyone due to the volume ?
The point of going to a small venue is to talk to other people, or at least, to your friend, lover, or whatever, right ?
And "enjoy" some live music maybe.
I assure you, it is NOT "enjoyable" to be tortured with LOUD music.
I used to play pool with earplugs in a bar I went to, and had lots of friends and players I couldn't joke around with because some house band thought they were so cool that blasting everyone was a great idea. It wasn't. Even their tone suffered at volume with all sorts of reflections and cancellations of frequencies which twisted their overall sound into a mess !
So please ponder the value of running a Twin in a small venue. Chances are your drums are too LOUD for the venue, and so is the rest of the band.
IMHO, all the overly loud live bands in this world(almost every one), are actually hurting people's hearing and the prosperity of the whole industry.
Do we WANT to lower the prosperity of live bands ?
I suggest smaller DRUMS, stereo SMALL amps(these "fill" out the sound like a Twin), and never getting louder than 80db in a small venue.
But that's me. Crazy.
Small drums, less efficient and lighter speakers, or super low power tube amps should be the way of the future.
The jazzy guys with small drums put on a GREAT show in front of 50 or so people OUTSIDE, and it was like we were right in the middle and could hear every part clearly...and without ANY ear pain or stress !
I would want to see that show anytime I felt like it.
The loud stuff ? NO.
If necessary, I'll play it on my stereo where I can keep it around 80db or so...like some of the venues are now enforcing.
Because if small venues don't keep the sound relatively low, they will be losing customers, and those venues won't be hiring live bands.
And if they don't hire live bands ?
We all get to play in our rooms, or practically play for FREE.
Which is exactly where the industry was before the Pandemic.
And a lot of that is because overly LOUD bands are just BAD product.
Who wants to go out and get their ears wrecked ? And so isolated from the intense noise, so as not being able to talk to anyone in a bar ?
Sorry, but that's my 3 cents(inflation) about it.
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Post by pcalu on Feb 12, 2022 10:07:05 GMT -5
So I have been thinking about my amps. I have a couple Fender amps that are low to high power. So I have a Blues Jr, DRRI, Pro Reverb and TRRI. We all agree that any amp needs to have a minimum gain level to really sing. So whatever the amp you want to get it to at least 4 to get it where it is designed. However.....however the question remains. TRRI at '2' vs a DRRI at '5'? etc? I am convinced the TRRI at '2' sounds better than any amp at just any volume on any other amp. My ears simply do not lie. I do tend to go with DRRI for gigs because it is practical and sounds really good at 5. So thoughts? high power amp at low gain vs lower power at higher gain? The reason for my question is I am thinking of bringing the Twin to my show at a small venue. I will assure everybody I"m not going to make the walls crack. I just want the honking tone that only the big 2 x 12s produce. Welcome to the TR user's club. (there are a few of us here) Equipment needed: A decent luggage carrier and some bungees to tie the amp to it. I gig a TR (among other amps) regularly. A luggage carrier makes transporting the amp easy. Leo Fender always considered the TR as the "Lincoln Town Car" of his amp line. Pure and simple, its a Pro amp. Big iron transformer, SS rectifier, 3 band EQ, decent grade Reverb and Tremolo.... powered by All American 6l6Gcs. TR's being so sensitive... Not a lot of forgiveness if your technique/chops are not up to the task/music you are playing live. Heck yea a Twin sound great at 2. and I agree with your assessment. I think the same... that is why I still use and enjoy playing a TR. Nothing I hate more live... running out of headroom. followed by I can't hear myself on stage.
Often the TR is the right amp for the gig with the venues and music genera I play. *** Here is a pet peeve I have with all the "oh that TR is an over kill, oh that TR is so so heavy"... People who say the previous.... will lug heavy azz P.A. equipment. So what is the difference?.... And... they won't think nothing when the sound man cranks that P.A. up to 10.. ***
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Post by Vibroluxer on Feb 12, 2022 10:37:52 GMT -5
I traded my Crate amp with a kicker (had a volume control, 3 LEDs, and a crappy 12in speaker) for a 71 Twin. I've never played through a DRRI so I can't comment on it but I can honestly say nothing sounds better than playing a chord and getting the bloom from a twin. Nothing. Edited to add that I know everyone is dying with curiosity over the Crate I had. If you follow the link you'll understand how crappy of an amp it was. And to think I traded both of these things for the Twin, well, I wound up on the good side of the trade. www.google.com/amp/s/www.premierguitar.com/amp/trash-or-treasure-crate-cr-1-2651066755
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Feb 12, 2022 12:36:19 GMT -5
It’s worth bearing in mind that all else being equal, a 2x12 will have more of a treble ‘beam’ than a 1x12, and with them being side by side, the beam will tend to be more elongated vertically. Of course it’s more of a problem with some speakers than others, and you obviously know your amp well. But during a soundcheck or something, it may be worth getting away from the amp and checking that all of the audience get a nice tonal balance from your amp.
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Post by hushnel on Feb 12, 2022 13:36:05 GMT -5
Interesting thread, the only guitar amp I have is an old Vibro Champ and a couple of Pignose, one an anniversary tweed, the other is an early vintage leather covered one, and one I made using the Pignose circuit mostly for the nostalgia of it.
Most of my guitars have been classical and the occasional Dread. I did purchase a Tele back in 1999, it’s what brought me to the FDP. I still had the old Fender Bassman 4X10 back then, the tele sounded pretty good through that amp. I still have the Tele, I play it pretty clean and it sounds nice through my current heard of bass amps.
The week before the whole Covid thing happened the lead vocalist/ mando player and close friend, passed away, I haven’t been in a band since, I hate that. since the age of 12 I’ve always been in a band. I’ve been playing a lot of guitar since then. Yeah the bass is my instrument and I pick it up at least weekly.
I think I’ll keep my eyes open for a Twin, I should have a least one stage worthy guitar amp. I’ve got everything else covered including a PA.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 12, 2022 14:02:13 GMT -5
I agree with the general principle that amps don't need to always be at 8 to sound good. The idea that amps need to be run wide open all the time.... I never bought it. Sure, if you want screamin' gritty, nasty tone, go for it. Just play champs and Princetons, and you're good.
There is an area that is too low... usually where you're struggling to get it to just whisper above being off entirely... but once you're past that, I like it. 3-4 always sounded good on my Twin and my Super Reverb (when I had them). I like clean tones, though. I like the dynamics the most in that range. Play soft and it is soft, dig in and you get a nice bloom to the tone. I played both of these amps in a fairly quiet band and they worked great.
Sometimes the extra bass response means it doesn't sit in the mix as well, depending on what you're playing. It generally isn't a problem for me as long as you're not using EMGs and huge speaker magnets, and to me the issue is more modern amp designs (Boogie, etc) than the actual amp size.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 12, 2022 14:25:40 GMT -5
I remember thinking my (long gone) Vibro King was overkill for most venues, until I realized that its eq section was interactive with volume. Turning down the tone knobs and cranking up the volume revealed a sweet spot for the particular room. It took our bass player bringing up a bunch of his kid students to play a short set to realize how well the 3x10 VK filled the room without sounding demonstrative.
That said, these days I'd take the smallest version amp that has verb and trem. Vintage Sound's 5 watt PR clone is tempting.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 12, 2022 20:51:35 GMT -5
You lost me at the thread title.
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Post by walshb 🦒 on Feb 13, 2022 12:23:11 GMT -5
For indoors, a TRRI combined with a Bugera Attenuator might be fun to try!
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Post by larryguitar54 on Feb 13, 2022 23:08:37 GMT -5
To respond to GB's point above--
Actually we agree. I am not advocating 'loud in small venue'. Quite the opposite I am searching for big tone at low volume. In other words if the Twin and Deluxe Reverb were set at the same decibel level which sounds better.
But since my post I have come around to a different vision. I will bring a Deluxe Reverb at no more than about 4 and a very spartan pedal board. I've adjusted the song list so the show will essentially be me on a stool singing and playing with my bass and drums laying down the rhythm. I've played this venue before and seen other bands come in with a full backline and crank it pretty loud so I have a sense of what the room can hold.
However my sensibility is to do something just a step up from the acoustic guitar coffee house presentation. The Twin and the big pedal board is just too much trouble.
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Feb 14, 2022 1:19:19 GMT -5
Yep...be good to your audience and they'll be good to you. Save the Twin for the outdoors and your future big time ! Or learn to tame it. There was a ratty old silver face twin at a music circle I played bass for, and this old pro would come in with only a slapback delay and his black LP. He somehow managed to put on a clinic in producing incredible bell-like clean finger picking lead that to this day I have no idea how he did. And although as pdf64 says, it was certainly a beamy twin, he just pointed the back of the twin against a wall and the back sound reflected enough to fill the room for everyone to enjoy if they got close enough to the beam.(it was a 20 x 15 room full of 10 guys and a drumset !) Somehow, it was not overkill though...except that one night everybody just felt like blowing our ears out. That got so bad I couldn't hear my own bass playing ! And no one could hear each other. Suffice it to say...that happened only once...and everyone laughed at it. As AK noted however, a VK has that unusual sound "field" around it, that certainly filled a 600 sq ft area in my experience, to an astonishing degree. A great number of other players mentioned this over the years too. This "fullness" would allow more people in the band to better hear the VK, thus making it an ideal rehearsal amp. Of course Pete Townsend found reason to use them in concerts. Both the beamy Twin and the not-so-beamy VK have open backs and multiple speakers, and it puzzled me why one beamed so much vs. the other. Pdf64 reminded me that, oh yes, I forgot to mention I've tried all sorts of beam-blocking materials like metal, cardboard, foam, plastics, rugs, layered silicone glue layered cloth and paper and metal and plastics etc etc. Nothing seemed to work very well, including extra EQ equipment. And there is a particular "sizzle" frequency I hear in most Fender amps that drives me up the wall, but I just didn't have the right equipment to stop it without degrading some frequency I wanted. Yeah, I forgot about that testing activity. I think I repressed that disastrous memory ! Now I think the big magnets and some of the support panels on the back of a modern Twin tended to block the "back" sound from the speakers(speakers produce sound both ways is what I'm trying to say). The Alnico magnets in the VK are so much smaller that the "back" sound of it's speakers are much more free to radiate out the back with the bigger cab opening, and so in a small to medium sized room, the VK creates more sound both ways to reflect off of the walls to make it sound "full". The VK is also packing 30 inches of speaker vs. the Twin's 24. Sadly, the VK doesn't carry itself to a gig though... And yes, I got the Bug to try with the VK. The VK is 3.8ohms I think. The Bug has 4ohms. After I pay for some fire insurance, and get out of my current rabbit hole, I'll see what happens ! PS. The next door condo is for sale. If I test too loudly, I might scare a buyer off ! Or attract a motorcycle gang. Or a meth lab. Things sell in a month around here...so I'll wait a mont to start breaking in the next neighbor...
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MoJoe
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Post by MoJoe on Feb 15, 2022 13:33:23 GMT -5
When I had a TR and a Tone King Imperial (in the ballpark with a DR) side by side, I found myself playing the Twin all the time in the end. Same with a JTM and AC30 vs diverse 5 to 15 watters. I'd rather fatten up a big old clean amp with a pedal than run out of steam with a small amp. Headroom is addictive. 0.2
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