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Post by ninworks on Apr 5, 2022 7:50:04 GMT -5
For those of us who are electronically challenged, this video, and the one that follows it, explain the design and the components used for tone stacks in tube guitar amplifiers and what it takes to change the characteristics of them.
My electronics knowledge is quite limited and I found this very helpful.
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Post by Jim D. on Apr 5, 2022 9:26:01 GMT -5
ninworks: Thanks for sharing this. I found it helpful as well, and it explains guitar tone control also-such things as cap and pot values which are continuously discussed on this forum as a way to shape tone and bring out various attributes of different pickups to taste. I find the instructor is very good at explaining why and how such components function.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 6, 2022 8:08:41 GMT -5
I disagree with a lot of stuff there. Non techs seem to love Uncle Doug, but his stuff seems invariably to contain some bad info, so I can’t recommend him, and urge caution, take what he says with a pinch of salt. He’s as likely to cause misunderstanding / misapprehension as he is to convey good info. The narrative that ‘passive tone controls can only cut’ seems fallacious to me, such an overly simplistic starting point that the subsequent analysis and conclusion are hobbled. How can anyone hear the action of the controls in a tonestack, see the effect of the frequency response, and still think that? My take is that the multiple filters within a tonestack interact to create a boost and cut, relative to a nominal mid range baseline. Have a play with www.guitarscience.net/tsc/info.htmJust need to select the appropriate tab at the top, and drag the sliders to see the effect on the frequency (and phase) response.
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Post by Leftee on Apr 6, 2022 9:42:16 GMT -5
I didn’t realize the TSC was still around!
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DrKev
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It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
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Post by DrKev on Apr 6, 2022 9:47:03 GMT -5
But passive filters are cut only. It's not fallacious, it's just how circuits work. Of course, if we think of the middle of the knob range (the 12 o'clock or center position) as zero or nominal then, yes, turning the control clockwise does feel like we're adding frequency content, but it's really *reducing the cut* in those frequencies rather than truly adding anything. And depending on how the max resistance of the pots are chosen, the fully clockwise position may still include a substantial cut relative to bypassing the tone stack. Let me state this another way...
No matter what we do to the controls, we will always have a smaller signal at *every frequency* than we would have if the tone stack was bypassed.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 6, 2022 11:34:13 GMT -5
Active circuits rely on an amplifier stage with lots of gain. Negative feedback is then applied. Often it’s essential to stabilise operation, but not always. Whatever, negative feedback cuts gain, so the signal level is lower than if the negative feedback was removed. So compared to the increased signal level when lifting a passive tone stack, it might be seen as a ‘six of one, half a dozen of the other’ scenario. Active tone controls alter the degree of negative feedback over particular frequency ranges. The exact same math and technology is used for the frequency selective negative feedback circuits as for those in frequency selective filters in passive tone stacks.
The net result of either is that frequency ranges can be cut or boosted about a nominal level.
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pdf64
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Posts: 558
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 7, 2022 7:21:58 GMT -5
…the fully clockwise position may still include a substantial cut relative to bypassing the tone stack. Let me state this another way... No matter what we do to the controls, we will always have a smaller signal at *every frequency* than we would have if the tone stack was bypassed. Apologies for my somewhat unusual perspective on the matter. My point is that for non techs, thinking of tonestack controls as ‘cut’ only may not be particularly helpful in understanding how they affect circuit response and how to get the desired results from them. But the above snippet may be a misapprehension. With basic low pass or high pass filters, signal loss is low, ie at the corner frequency it’s-3dB, up or down a decade (as appropriate) it’s only 1dB. The standard tonestack treble control is an example of a high pass filter. With treble up, signal loss in the passband is pretty negligible; lifting the tonestack will have minimal effect on the signal level in the treble range. Using TSC, lifting the tonestack can be simulated by mid control RM pot value to a suitably high value, eg 100M ohms. Losses there are due to the source impedance of the preceding stage RIN and its load impedance, made up of the net total effective impedance of the tonestack in parallel with whatever comes next RL. Having a play around with TSC can be enlightening.
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Post by Leftee on Apr 7, 2022 7:43:57 GMT -5
When I was into modding amps (particularly old tube PA heads) the TSC was the key to success.
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Post by Seldom Seen on Apr 7, 2022 13:45:19 GMT -5
Am I sick in the head because I enjoy reading and learning about this stuff? I don’t pretend to understand it beyond a basic level but my brain feels strangely stimulated when all the heavy hitters chime in.
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Apr 9, 2022 1:14:27 GMT -5
I again curse my copious but insufficient USA schooling !
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Post by Leftee on Apr 9, 2022 9:41:04 GMT -5
Am I sick in the head because I enjoy reading and learning about this stuff? I don’t pretend to understand it beyond a basic level but my brain feels strangely stimulated when all the heavy hitters chime in. Yes… That’s why you’re hanging out here with your kind. 😂
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Post by Lesterstrat on Apr 19, 2022 19:55:56 GMT -5
I feel cheated. I was certain I would finally get an explanation of crystal lettuce but, alas, not so much as a word about it.
*sigh*
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DrKev
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It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
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Post by DrKev on Apr 24, 2022 3:50:42 GMT -5
I feel cheated. I was certain I would finally get an explanation of crystal lettuce but, alas, not so much as a word about it. *sigh* Lettuce? Nah, that's word salad!
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 424
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Post by DrKev on Apr 24, 2022 3:56:13 GMT -5
Have a play with www.guitarscience.net/tsc/info.htmJust need to select the appropriate tab at the top, and drag the sliders to see the effect on the frequency (and phase) response. Thank you so much for this link! I really should have thanked you for this two weeks ago but I've been travelling lately. Still, better late than never. I have literally spent HOURS playing with this! For some things I also like Circuit Lab. Yes, you have the build the circuit first and don't have nice neat TMB controls, but it's easier for sweeping component values and plotting the changes in one go).
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 24, 2022 8:25:18 GMT -5
Excellent, I’m pleased you’ve found it useful! Just to note though that it’s not perfect, in that all the circuits seem to have slight component value errors. Which are easy enough to edit and correct, the trick is to remember to do it eg the mid control in the 3 band Fender arrangement defaults to 10k linear, when really it should be 10k log B (10%). And all the Brit (Vox, Marshall etc) log control defaults are log A (30%), when they should be log B. Unless setting everything to 0 or 10, getting the control taper accurate is rather important in getting the results from the modelling to match reality. Thanks for the Circuit Lab recommendation, I really need to knuckle down and force myself to learn a decent simulation app.
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