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Post by windmill on Jan 2, 2020 21:59:53 GMT -5
I'm a latecomer to playing in a band, going on 3 years now, playing bass.
I remember reading years ago about the first time the Rolling Stones went into a recording studio. Their manager, Andrew Loog Oldham, sat behing the control desk. When they had finished playing and were leaving, the studio engineer asked Oldham about mixing the tracks recorded. He said "Oh you can do that". By the next year when they were recording, Oldham wouldn't let anyone near the desk and oversaw all post production himself.
The story has always stuck with me as an example of "The more you learn, the more in control of your destiny you are".
In a couple of weeks the band will playing a venue with a house PA and soundman and the last couple of times there I couldn't hear myself on stage.
This time I will be getting there very early so there is plenty of time to talk to the soundman to ensure it dioesn't happen again.
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69tele
Halfnote
Rockin the Rock !
Posts: 91
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Post by 69tele on Jan 3, 2020 4:26:12 GMT -5
Following your post my motto is "Never Assume Anything" , and "If it can go wrong it will go wrong".
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 3, 2020 13:46:23 GMT -5
Being able to hear yourself and the rest of the band is critical. Stage volume should be such that you can lean over and speak with the drummer while playing at gig volume. That, of course, is the ideal and is rarely reality.
If you don't go with IEMs, have you tried wearing earplugs? Even the cheap foam roll-up type work really well because it blocks much of the mids and highs and allows bass frequencies through. I wore 'em when I was gigging because it allowed me to hear the drums and bass when the room mix was terrible. You can get these at any DIY store and they are ridiculously inexpensive. If it turns out they work well for you, step up to silicone ear plugs (sporting goods/firearms shops) because they are washable and reusable and they last forever. And these are also inexpensive.
Give 'em a try. You may not need them all the time, but on those gigs with bad room sound or a sound tech that really has no clue (there are a lot of 'em in the clubs), the ear plugs really do work.
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GmanNJ
Wholenote
somewhere deep in the swamps of Joisey
Posts: 315
Formerly Known As: Your Friendly Neighborhood Gman
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Post by GmanNJ on Jan 4, 2020 9:11:33 GMT -5
the worst enemy is the player that plays too damn loud. Yes its usually the guitarist who starts it. then everyone else volumes up to hear themselves and the result is too much volume and the sound person cannot control it aux outs with individual mixes (powered monitors), micing the amps (and pointing the amp at the head of the player) plus raising the amp with an amp stand all help but I have always found resistance to any of this if you have to wear ear plugs on stage then your too damn loud! You have the wrong problem statement. Its not "how do I operate in this loud stage"...its "how do I lower the stage volume". the never ending problem  |
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Post by rickyguitar on Jan 4, 2020 12:38:12 GMT -5
I have seen volume wars started by drummers too. Situation where they play slow if they play quiet so they just go ahead and play loud. The availability of good sounding small amps is a godsend, if everybody has one. Yeah, if you need earplugs yet prolly just too loud.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 4, 2020 12:54:24 GMT -5
History is replete with tales of volume wars. Global power centers have changed and national borders have shifted over it. Here's an actual picture from the 1600s. Click on image to enlarge  |
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Post by gato on Jan 4, 2020 17:57:29 GMT -5
I agree with the comments on the volume wars. When half drunk bar patrons stagger up during breaks and implore you to turn down, you know things have gotten out of hand.
(And ear plugs are an absolute necessity. That ringing in your ears after a gig is the equivalent of those drunks mentioned above.)
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Post by HenryJ on Jan 4, 2020 20:30:19 GMT -5
If it's the type of gig where you can use music stands...don't! Always look audience members in the eye.
Learn the music (and the words, if you are singing).
That's one of the things I have learned.
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Post by rickyguitar on Jan 4, 2020 22:19:14 GMT -5
Well, if you want to learn to stop watching your hands practice in the dark.
Prolly the best, most useful thing I learned was the number system. If someone calls "4 chords in the key of A and the 4th chord is a 2" I am set.
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Post by gato on Jan 5, 2020 8:15:07 GMT -5
Music stands.... arrrrrgh!
The drummer and I are the only ones who do without. I think they clutter up the stage, and lend a certain amateur ambience to the ensemble. Others among you differ, I know. Just my humble opinion.
In my group, the set list always goes out the window after the first song. This means that the band members shuffling through loose-leaf binders, is a regular feature. Inevitably a sheaf of papers falls to the floor, making for a Keystone Kops minute or two while re-shuffling occurs.
Shoot .... why not tune up during the set too? Gong Show, anyone?
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Post by hushnel on Jan 5, 2020 14:07:51 GMT -5
I can remember every tune, I don’t sing so I don’t need that. My weakness is set lists, I can handle a change to the list, it’s necessary at times to maintain the flow of the audience but I need a few seconds to switch gears. It’s my mind that’s screwed up. I have great storage abilities but my inventory index sucks.
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Juice N
Quarternote
I’m just a dude, playing a dude, pretending to be some other dude
Posts: 27
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Post by Juice N on Jan 5, 2020 14:38:39 GMT -5
As a musician and a full time FOH engineer I can attest to both sides of the coin. You absolutely have to be able to hear yourself on stage to perform well and the sound guy should make every endeavor to give you what you need in your monitors. As others have already stated though, stage volume can quickly overcome your ability to hear what’s coming out of your monitors. The sound coming from the stage is more than the monitor can overcome. IEM’s are a beautiful thing. The first time I used them I was hooked, and love the ability to dial in my own mix in my ears.
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Ayns
Wholenote
Posts: 767
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Post by Ayns on Jan 5, 2020 15:58:09 GMT -5
We used to have a guitarist who used a music stand with the song chords in it. He was actually a guitar teacher and a great guitarist. Unfortunately we used to get people coming up to us after gigs asking why he needed to use it and "doesn't he know the songs?" We told him it had to go :-(
Our current other guitarist has on-song (?) on his iPad and has built a monitor screen into a monitor speaker enclosure so he can "cheat" without the audience realising. ;-)
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Post by Laker on Jan 6, 2020 14:51:11 GMT -5
What’s kind of funny about using or not using a music stand, for me, was back when I joined the American Federation of Musicians (joined in 1960) rock music and the young people playing it, were frowned on by the old school players of the day. Because we didn’t have music stands in front of us and played everything from memory they referred to us as “fakers”. Thus the naming of “fake books” where chord changes are written out. In those days, in order to join the union, a musician had to read music.
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Post by hushnel on Jan 6, 2020 16:00:35 GMT -5
Yeah, I’m just feral scab labor “o)
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Post by jazzguy on Jan 6, 2020 17:52:09 GMT -5
If it's the type of gig where you can use music stands...don't! Always look audience members in the eye. Learn the music (and the words, if you are singing). That's one of the things I have learned. Count me among those who doesn't use music stands, they just don't look professional. Just learn the tunes and you won't need one. That said, our tenor player is an older local legend that has one on every gig, but I rarely see him glance at it. I think some musicians use them as a crutch and just feel more comfortable w/them even though they might rarely look at them. |
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Post by roly on Jan 7, 2020 2:41:23 GMT -5
"a sound tech that really has no clue (there are a lot of 'em in the clubs)"
There are exceptions Geno...:>)
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cagey
Wholenote
My guitar doesn't have the same notes as yours
Posts: 110
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Post by cagey on Jan 17, 2020 14:20:45 GMT -5
A few years ago I played in a 5 piece band where the keyboard player and I were the only ones who didn't use music stands. After one gig someone said to me "So you and the keyboard player can't read music?"
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Post by larryguitar54 on Jan 17, 2020 20:43:48 GMT -5
a.) Stage volume---On stage volume everything should be set to the drummer. Usually arms race is caused because of the inability to control dynamics. There is a natural tendency for everybody to want to hog all the sonic room. Or for whatever reason the backline will pound away at the exact same volume for the entire song and never change. In other words when the lead solo comes up nobody lays back. You can see it too when the singer is screaming to be heard above the din. They each think they are contributing to the overall energy but really they are just creating a lot of mud. That's why I like trios over quartets. A rhythm player who knows how to palm mute and choke a note is worth gold.
b.) Music stands--It's a mixed blessing. Unless you performing 200 shows a year it's really hard to memorize the complete lyrics. Onsong and clip ons are a godsend. But like anything else it gets overused. It should be a fallback that gives you a prompt for the next lyric but not something you should lock into. Also there is another real problem. If you are singer and you are staring at a screen you will inevitably drop your chin to read the page. It is almost impossible to look down and not also drop the intonation and power of the vocals. If you have any doubts go to our mic and test it and you will see.
c.) Sound guy--I decided long ago next time the band does any kind of serious gig there will be a stage manager sound guy who will control the stage monitors and PA mix. What you hear on stage is not what the audience hears. Also each person really needs to have their monitor personalized to their needs. As the lead guitar player I don't need to hear the lead singers vocals at all. I don't need all the drums. Just the kick drum and snare. The cymbals just confuse me. But I really need to hear that top of beat from the bass player clearly.
d.) Effects--As the volume increases the effects have to decrease. For some reason the delay will cause a guitar to get lost in the mix and a drive pedal will put a blanket on everything.
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Ryder
Wholenote
Butterscotch Blues
Posts: 856
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Post by Ryder on Jan 23, 2020 5:53:48 GMT -5
One place for music stands is in church. We play a few hundred songs each year, but some of them only once a year, some twice a year.
A few years ago we got a new pastor. He told the band leader he’d like to see no music stands...too much clutter. When the band leader told us we all laughed. Still using music stands. We’re all too poor to buy iPads for church.
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jdawg
Wholenote
Posts: 151
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Post by jdawg on Jan 23, 2020 15:26:08 GMT -5
Being a wedding /corporate band, we have over 300 songs in our repertoire and I use an IPad or android tablet. Plus for the next wedding we are playing we are learning 3 new songs. I don't want to flub the lyrics for their first dance song. And I'm 60 years old with word retention problems. So I have my IPad running GuitarTapp and everybody is happy.
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