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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 17, 2023 18:34:41 GMT -5
why does my pedal chain (guitar-wha-TS9 tube screamer-korg tuner-amp) have more gain or drive or cut with batteries than power supply. Does the supply via it be batteries or power supply push amps/voltate into pedals or do pedalso only draw what they need. both batteries and power supply have about 9.5vdc?
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DrKev
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Post by DrKev on Nov 18, 2023 6:35:34 GMT -5
Pedals only draw what they need. The supply does not push anything into anything.
If a power supply is running below its maximum rated output current it will maintain the nominal voltage. However the voltage supplied by the batteries depends on the remaining charge and the load. That means that batteries with low reaming charge can test good because they are not doing any real work when unless tested in the circuit. But they can't maintain that voltage once trying to deliver the current the pedal is trying to draw. As a result, the voltage will drop below what the testing suggests, and under low voltage many pedals will lose clean headroom and distortion will result.
My guess is the battery in the TS9 needs changing. They will keep going into quite low voltage levels before many people notice any extra distortion and/or output drop. The Korg tuner is digital (I assume) and requires a distinct minimum voltage and current to operate. It will keep going just fine until that point and then it will just stop.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 18, 2023 10:45:12 GMT -5
I'm way out of the loop, but aren't there pedal power supplies with adjustable voltage now to emulate the half-dead battery thing?
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Post by Seldom Seen on Nov 18, 2023 12:09:30 GMT -5
I'm way out of the loop, but aren't there pedal power supplies with adjustable voltage now to emulate the half-dead battery thing? Yes, all of my VL PedalPower II units have a couple of outputs with “sag” pots.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 18, 2023 12:11:22 GMT -5
I'm way out of the loop, but aren't there pedal power supplies with adjustable voltage now to emulate the half-dead battery thing? Yes, all of my VL PedalPower II units have a couple of outputs with “sag” pots. Does it work as advertised?
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Post by Seldom Seen on Nov 18, 2023 13:09:41 GMT -5
It definitely affects the tone and volume. Check out some of the online video demos. You can get some interesting results, especially with fuzz effects.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 18, 2023 13:22:17 GMT -5
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009
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Post by 009 on Nov 18, 2023 15:08:40 GMT -5
...So it seems you can't trust Sweetwater's info:
From Sweetwater: "... and the Volture’s voltage knob allows you to dial in the amount of power your pedal receives precisely — from full-on typical 9V power to starved and sputtering mayhem."
From the manufacturer: "With the Volture, you can input 9, 12 or 18VDC and output an adjustable voltage from 7.5VDC down to 1.25VDC..."
It doesn't seem right to me, sort of like buying a used car.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 18, 2023 15:22:13 GMT -5
...So it seems you can't trust Sweetwater's info: From Sweetwater: "... and the Volture’s voltage knob allows you to dial in the amount of power your pedal receives precisely — from full-on typical 9V power to starved and sputtering mayhem." From the manufacturer: "With the Volture, you can input 9, 12 or 18VDC and output an adjustable voltage from 7.5VDC down to 1.25VDC..." It doesn't seem right to me, sort of like buying a used car. the main thing is it does not go from 9v down making it useless and why would it be like that
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009
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Post by 009 on Nov 18, 2023 18:30:53 GMT -5
Well, you better seek a refund (or credit towards something else) ASAP.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 18, 2023 18:46:20 GMT -5
Well, you better seek a refund (or credit towards something else) ASAP. its on its way back. But my orig question is why do full (new) batteries sound different than a one spot wall wart power suppy and why do both sound different from old boss wall warts. Shouldn't it all soound the same if the batteries are new
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Post by Cal-Woody on Nov 18, 2023 19:05:46 GMT -5
Boss PSA's are usually 10 volt with 12-1400 ma. Probably why you haven't had an issue. At least that's what my old one is rated at. I may have the milliamps wrong but they do have a 10 volt rating. Check yours out....
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DrKev
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It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
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Post by DrKev on Nov 19, 2023 4:22:56 GMT -5
Well, you better seek a refund (or credit towards something else) ASAP. its on its way back. But my orig question is why do full (new) batteries sound different than a one spot wall wart power suppy and why do both sound different from old boss wall warts. Shouldn't it all soound the same if the batteries are new I've never in 35 years noticed a difference between new batteries and psu. Could you be mistaken? Expectation bias is real and nobody can escape it. Stuff we read back when guitar magazines had b&w photos Eric Johnson said Duracell sounds better can fool our brain into thinking we hear differences that don't exist. Can you record it?
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 19, 2023 11:12:34 GMT -5
its on its way back. But my orig question is why do full (new) batteries sound different than a one spot wall wart power suppy and why do both sound different from old boss wall warts. Shouldn't it all soound the same if the batteries are new I've never in 35 years noticed a difference between new batteries and psu. Could you be mistaken? Expectation bias is real and nobody can escape it. Stuff we read back when guitar magazines had b&w photos Eric Johnson said Duracell sounds better can fool our brain into thinking we hear differences that don't exist. Can you record it? not sure how much gain you run in your amp but if its high then the difference is minor. i play a clear rig SRV Trower type sound and you can deffently hear the difference
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 19, 2023 12:44:09 GMT -5
Been many years since I've played enough with pedals to notice, but I remember a basic OD/distortion would sound slightly brighter with a Boss PS instead of a battery. It wasn't enough for me to care since it was just a small EQ change, and not some amazing trick to make my tone better.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Nov 19, 2023 14:39:00 GMT -5
It’s quick and simple to check voltage with a basic digital multimeter. If it matters to you, then measure the voltage (at the battery terminals, in each pedal).
There’s typically little, or most likely no, voltage regulation circuitry inside pedals. Hence as the supply voltage increases, circuits will tend to draw more current, device operating points and circuit characteristics will change.
My ancient TS9 doesn’t quit until its battery is down to about 5.5V. I changed a couple of electrolytic decoupling caps in it a few years ago, as it would tend to oscillate (howl) as the battery ran down.
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 21, 2023 19:23:58 GMT -5
My "signature" pedal has a built-in sag dial. It will go down to "doesn't put out ANY sound" levels. I have an old Dano adapter with sag that does the same thing. They're out there, just have to find them.
That said, it's really only a thing I give a crap about on fuzz pedals where they actually hit a magical point when they're about to die.
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Nov 22, 2023 5:56:00 GMT -5
That seems to make a lot of sense to me if fuzzes are strong squarewaves generally, and by providing only barely enough power means the squarewaves are weakened or irregular as a result, thus providing a wave closer to a sine wave, which to my ears is more natural and pleasant. I also notice that stronger signals from the guitar pickups often result in "buzzier" tones that also tend to smooth out the tone is rolled back, and can work on overdrives and distortions too. Some devices do this better than others. And guitars vary widely on how the caps handle frequency changes upon volume or tone knob changes. As for the OP, one can't know if one doesn't measure. My guess for the 'fresh battery" question is that fresh batteries can and often do provide extra voltage above their rated voltage(1.7 to 1.8v for a 1.5v AA for example; I forget what a new 9v is and it varies with the type of 9v, but usually this overvoltage state is less than 4% of their lifespan in my experience)...voltage that might push a pedal to start producing more highs. Why ? Using the above example suggests the extra voltage might push a device into stronger squarewave creation which might make the highs a bit more obvious, and the sound buzzier. I've experienced this with many devices, many times, but not with all devices. I've also noticed extra input amps available might do the same thing. But this usually isn't a big impact. Just don't record with fresh batteries if tone is an issue ! Most people don't even notice. Especially an audience. As for battery power sounding "better" than wallwart power...I think so. Sometimes. The battery is not usually providing as much power to your equipment(on average for 80% or more of it's lifespan) as a regulated wallwart, so it might create softer squarewaves which sound better than strong, harsh squarewaves. Besides, the distortion pedal could have been carefully designed to be at it's best with the use of a BATTERY...running at a little less than a wallwart. And frankly, if you ever measure a wallwart output, well, the voltages are all over the map...including from the same manufacturer. Boss used to be pretty consistent at 9.6v but who knows with later versions. And if one has pedal A with a sweet spot at 8.9v and another with a sweet spot at 9.1v, then the wallwart isn't going to be the best option at 9.6v. And it gets even more deep in the weeds when one pedal's sweetspot is different than the same pedal from the same factory due to the accumulation of acceptable "variances" in it's internal electronics. So. Good luck with all that.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 10:47:17 GMT -5
I can't confirm or deny your electrical analysis, but it seems to match what my own ears heard comparing power supplies and batteries... though the difference was small.
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Post by markfromhawaii on Nov 23, 2023 11:36:45 GMT -5
Interesting discussion. I have to wonder if pedalboard power supplies and wall warts are linear at their DC output. One of the voltage regulation benchmarks is how much ripple the output has. Most power supply manufacturers make switching power supplies because they’re cheaper and lighter than true linear power supplies. They work fine for digital equipment but do backfeed harmonics into the AC input.
PS: Other than Eric Johnson, it’s said that Duane Allman preferred worn batteries with his Fuzzface. Of course, there weren’t any alkaline batteries back then. I was listening to the Fillmore East album the other day and marveled at his distorted tone.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 23, 2023 12:44:45 GMT -5
Hendrix SRV and Trower all used/use batteries not power supplies
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 23, 2023 15:08:01 GMT -5
Hendrix SRV and Trower all used/use batteries not power supplies Hendrix's era of stuff didn't even have power supply inputs, but much of his stuff was AC powered - the tape echoes, etc. Trower and SRV's analog stuff also had a lot of AC-powered units (Univibes, rack stuff, tape echoes, etc). Hendrix also used cutting, cutting edge gear. And wasn't particularly picky, given how many Strats and things he just threw away, gave away, et al. I find it funny when people try to corksniff when HE didn't. They all would have ben using power supplies if modern pedalboards and options existed. Eric Johnson's home pedalboard (where he'd be more likely to use batteries etc) is ALL AC powered. His live board any of the modern pedals that have inputs..use AC. www.guitarworld.com/features/eric-johnson-at-home-pedalboard
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 23, 2023 15:36:54 GMT -5
Hendrix SRV and Trower all used/use batteries not power supplies Hendrix's era of stuff didn't even have power supply inputs, but much of his stuff was AC powered - the tape echoes, etc. Trower and SRV's analog stuff also had a lot of AC-powered units (Univibes, rack stuff, tape echoes, etc). Hendrix also used cutting, cutting edge gear. And wasn't particularly picky, given how many Strats and things he just threw away, gave away, et al. I find it funny when people try to corksniff when HE didn't. They all would have ben using power supplies if modern pedalboards and options existed. Eric Johnson's home pedalboard (where he'd be more likely to use batteries etc) is ALL AC powered. His live board any of the modern pedals that have inputs..use AC. www.guitarworld.com/features/eric-johnson-at-home-pedalboardmaybe they would use power supplies now days but im saying there great tone came from battery powered pedals. they would sound different with power supplied peddals maybe better maybe worse we will never know but me personaly i love the tone they got with batteries just wish it could be nailed with power supplies for consistancy but it cant
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 23, 2023 15:44:51 GMT -5
Don't know what to say, I haven't had your problems nor have any of the folks I've played with for ages.
Keep in mind also that the recorded tones are all MASSIVELY processed through outboard gear, expensive mics, et al. It's not just "sound in room.'
I played an actual Hendrix documented strat. I still sounded like..me.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 15:51:25 GMT -5
The fact that Red House was recorded with an SG and most people assume it is a Strat is pretty good evidence how bad we are at guessing what is what on those recordings and giving it that sound.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 23, 2023 15:51:38 GMT -5
I think SRV did use batteries for a reason becuawe they were availabble when he was alive and Trower's current set up is batteries srv's trowers curretn peddals i tooke the picture myself
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 23, 2023 16:15:51 GMT -5
The fact that Red House was recorded with an SG and most people assume it is a Strat is pretty good evidence how bad we are at guessing what is what on those recordings and giving it that sound. Yep. And what we don't know, given how ...suspect Kramer has been at times. Even the notorious tone hound and liar Billy Gibbons hasn't pulled the battery yarn out!
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 16:22:49 GMT -5
The best tone is going to come from understanding what does what and making conscientious decisions, not just allegiance to vintage, modern, or trying to imagine what someone who has been gone from this world for several decades would have done. SRV's Little Wing was recorded with a Dumble, which would have seemed suspiciously "modern" at the time.
"Modern" tries to fix what isn't broken, or just tries to make things sound nice in man caves while sacrificing what made something cool to begin with. "Vintage" often misses the forest through the trees and obsesses over all the wrong stuff. "Super thin nitro finish!", "okay, but your bridge is the wrong spec, you put locking tuners on it, your neck is too thin and you have a completely different truss rod in there, your 'vintage spec' pickups sound nothing like the originals..."
Some of the best work in understanding signal chains, buffers, and digitally controlling them to get stuff out of the loop when not in use is happening right now. Some of the best work of figuring out exactly what made that 5% of Tube Screamers sound different than the other 95% is happening now, too. I recently read an article about the pedalboard of a hard rock group, and was amazed at how clean and versatile it was, and carefully arranged to not be a tone hog like the old BOSS displays in the music stores in the '90s.
Pedals are overrated, anyway. I VERY rarely have played a pedal and had any tonal bliss out of it. They're tools for me when you need more than the amp sounds in a band mix. I don't even like turning on reverb. I have lying around somewhere a Crowther Hot Cake which is a nifty little Mesa in a box thing and that always impresses, but often I'm just left feeling "meh" about pedals. Batteries are expensive, not of the quality they used to be, and not terribly reliable. I wouldn't think twice about 86ing batteries, and if I don't like the tonal changes, the tools are available to make it better. My ears are fairly sharp and I can hear well enough to notice the difference... but I really don't care. And, I can hear the difference of fret alloys, and between bleached and unbleached bone, so I'm not exactly a deaf old man who can't hear this stuff.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 16:24:36 GMT -5
The fact that Red House was recorded with an SG and most people assume it is a Strat is pretty good evidence how bad we are at guessing what is what on those recordings and giving it that sound. Yep. And what we don't know, given how ...suspect Kramer has been at times. Even the notorious tone hound and liar Billy Gibbons hasn't pulled the battery yarn out! Yeah, speaking of Billy Gibbons, the guitar string gauge debate is a great example of how the dogmatism can just be silly sometimes. Try telling any blues player in the late '90s through the 2000s that light strings would give you better tone than heavy strings, and you would've gotten an angry rant, spittle in your face, and he'd have called you some s*ssy hair metal player.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 23, 2023 16:54:55 GMT -5
The fact that Red House was recorded with an SG and most people assume it is a Strat is pretty good evidence how bad we are at guessing what is what on those recordings and giving it that sound. How do you know Jimi recorded red house on a SG? i know he played it live mostly on Gibsons but woodstocck is a strat. I would love to see some documented profff on your claim thks
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