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Post by reverendrob on Nov 23, 2023 18:00:46 GMT -5
Yep. And what we don't know, given how ...suspect Kramer has been at times. Even the notorious tone hound and liar Billy Gibbons hasn't pulled the battery yarn out! Yeah, speaking of Billy Gibbons, the guitar string gauge debate is a great example of how the dogmatism can just be silly sometimes. Try telling any blues player in the late '90s through the 2000s that light strings would give you better tone than heavy strings, and you would've gotten an angry rant, spittle in your face, and he'd have called you some s*ssy hair metal player. Yep, the whole SRV he man string argument crapola.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 18:18:55 GMT -5
The fact that Red House was recorded with an SG and most people assume it is a Strat is pretty good evidence how bad we are at guessing what is what on those recordings and giving it that sound. How do you know Jimi recorded red house on a SG? i know he played it live mostly on Gibsons but woodstocck is a strat. I would love to see some documented profff on your claim thks I mean, you can google it like I did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_House_(song) There is a citation to one of Wheeler's books on that point, so that is a reliable source. It has been confirmed a few different places, and my ears absolutely tell me it isn't a Strat. Remember that a Gibson from the '60s is going to be brighter than we think of Gibsons now - PAF and patent number pickups were brighter, hardware was lighter, neck angle was a bit shallower, etc.
In either case, my point still stands. What chance does a 9v battery have in replicating his tone when people are confusing a Strat and an SG?
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 18:30:38 GMT -5
Check this out, too. He is very diligent in his research. Of particular interest to me was how often the in-studio Strats were earlier models instead of the big peghead later Strats typically more associated with him; makes sense to me because the '64-'65 Strats I've played have sounded more Hendrix-y to me than the late '60s ones (though there was a '67 that kinda nailed it), and definitely more than any '70s Strats, which many casual observers would assume is more suited for the task.
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Post by Leftee on Nov 23, 2023 18:32:05 GMT -5
When I build and sell guitars, I always string with .009s. About half the buyers ask me if I can restring with .011s. I don’t keep those on-hand, so no. The nut slots are cut for .010s. That’s all I’ll do, if I even have those around.
What’s interesting to me is, when they don’t ask me to restring and they get the guitar, often they’ll ask me what brand strings are on said guitar because they play/sound so nice. But through the conversation they learn they’re .009s. So really what they just learned, if they let themselves, is that lighter strings sound and play great.
The other thing is “tonewoods.” I get high-falootin’ questions about the tone of the body woods. Lately I’ve been replying that, the more guitars I build, the less I know how to answer that question.
The last guy that asked, I replied that I’d never had those electronics and neck on a different body, so I really don’t know.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 18:53:26 GMT -5
Yeah, it is a great example of the pendulum swinging from decade to decade. This stuff is rarely set in stone. I remember a time when people obsessed over guitar weight and insisted the heavier guitars sounded best.... and they did if you wanted a compressed, sustain-y tone. Light guitars were for wusses with bad backs.
IMO, the reason 11s got so popular is because everyone was listening to SRV and beating the heck out of their guitars. The best string is USUALLY the one that matches how aggressively you play, so a bunch of people probably had an "a ha!" moment if they went from beating the snot out of 9s up to 10s and then feeling very satisfied with themselves with 11s. I run into this with acoustic guys a lot. Many newer guitars are kinda underbuilt and will sound fine with 11s, but then someone wants really light strings to deal with some age (and technique) related hand problems, but they keep beating the snot out of it so it buzzes and sounds flappy and awful. Play with a lighter touch, and they sound nice. Your example Leftee makes me wonder if these are people who were smacking their guitars around ruthlessly 20-30 years ago but have lightened up over the years.
Tonewoods.... tl;dr wood definitely matters, but most people get the how/why part wrong. Electric bodies don't "resonate", they act as filters as the anchors and reflective surfaces for the strings. I see SO MANY people try to make electrics with high end, dense, oily woods that sound like dog carp. This is why lighter woods like (light) ash, alder, pine, and so on work so well for electrics. You want something where you can hit a large plank and get a tone, not something that has to be sawn/planed/sanded down to a back/side set in order to resonate. You won't get the richness of a piece of rosewood if you're just bolting a bridge to an 1 3/4" slab. You may as well be using plywood.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 23, 2023 19:01:34 GMT -5
How do you know Jimi recorded red house on a SG? i know he played it live mostly on Gibsons but woodstocck is a strat. I would love to see some documented profff on your claim thks I mean, you can google it like I did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_House_(song) There is a citation to one of Wheeler's books on that point, so that is a reliable source. It has been confirmed a few different places, and my ears absolutely tell me it isn't a Strat. Remember that a Gibson from the '60s is going to be brighter than we think of Gibsons now - PAF and patent number pickups were brighter, hardware was lighter, neck angle was a bit shallower, etc.
In either case, my point still stands. What chance does a 9v battery have in replicating his tone when people are confusing a Strat and an SG?
i cant seem to find where it says he used a gibson and what makes this person the authority on this. I also googled this and found nothing about what guitar he used to record red house. I have reseached everything hendrix for the last 50 years so im sceptical about hearing something like this and need proof
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Post by Leftee on Nov 23, 2023 19:09:35 GMT -5
I don’t know the details behind the “string theories.” Sometimes I get the feeling it’s the “play the biggest strings you can handle,” internet drivel.
Well-stated about tonewoods.
The questions I get are always of a relative nature. “Does the Walnut body make this guitar sound brighter?” Or, “does the Walnut body make this a bright sounding guitar?”
Honestly, a guitar sounds like it does because of the alchemy of its parts and setup. So many variables, so little reference available regarding these exact pieces.
Less internet, more playing.
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Post by Leftee on Nov 23, 2023 19:17:37 GMT -5
To be fair, I used to engage in some of the drivel.
I’ve been through so many guitars, have so many now, and have built quite a few in recent years that I feel comfortable using the word “drivel.”
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 23, 2023 19:30:46 GMT -5
I mean, you can google it like I did. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_House_(song) There is a citation to one of Wheeler's books on that point, so that is a reliable source. It has been confirmed a few different places, and my ears absolutely tell me it isn't a Strat. Remember that a Gibson from the '60s is going to be brighter than we think of Gibsons now - PAF and patent number pickups were brighter, hardware was lighter, neck angle was a bit shallower, etc.
In either case, my point still stands. What chance does a 9v battery have in replicating his tone when people are confusing a Strat and an SG?
i cant seem to find where it says he used a gibson and what makes this person the authority on this. I also googled this and found nothing about what guitar he used to record red house. I have reseached everything hendrix for the last 50 years so im sceptical about hearing something like this and need proof Well, keep looking into it, then. I'm not presenting this in court, nor am I your personal researcher, nor am I all that personally invested in this discussion. I'll just say that we're always learning new things, and that is part of the fun of life.
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 23, 2023 20:45:46 GMT -5
i cant seem to find where it says he used a gibson and what makes this person the authority on this. I also googled this and found nothing about what guitar he used to record red house. I have reseached everything hendrix for the last 50 years so im sceptical about hearing something like this and need proof Well, keep looking into it, then. I'm not presenting this in court, nor am I your personal researcher, nor am I all that personally invested in this discussion. I'll just say that we're always learning new things, and that is part of the fun of life. That and the vast majority of the info wasn't available - there wasn't significant "research" done until people started caring about recording minutiae and that really started to come into its own in the early 90s at the earliest. Pro audio sources are the best game in town for htat, not guitarist stuff. The Kramer interviews, the Roger Meyer ones, etc are going to be the relatively authoritative there, but they didn't keep notes like you'd want because for them...this was another session. But on Red House etc Hendrix used the SGs and the Vs live almost exclusively except Woodstock, and if you're gunning to replicate his tone, the live will be more practical to achieve since you likely aren't going to have Neve boards and Pultecs and RCA ribbons and.... at a bar gig.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 23, 2023 23:02:40 GMT -5
Well, keep looking into it, then. I'm not presenting this in court, nor am I your personal researcher, nor am I all that personally invested in this discussion. I'll just say that we're always learning new things, and that is part of the fun of life. That and the vast majority of the info wasn't available - there wasn't significant "research" done until people started caring about recording minutiae and that really started to come into its own in the early 90s at the earliest. Pro audio sources are the best game in town for htat, not guitarist stuff. The Kramer interviews, the Roger Meyer ones, etc are going to be the relatively authoritative there, but they didn't keep notes like you'd want because for them...this was another session. But on Red House etc Hendrix used the SGs and the Vs live almost exclusively except Woodstock, and if you're gunning to replicate his tone, the live will be more practical to achieve since you likely aren't going to have Neve boards and Pultecs and RCA ribbons and.... at a bar gig. kramer finnaly admitted in a recent interview that jimi used a Fender amp i think a showman on vodoo chilie after years of speculation
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 24, 2023 8:18:28 GMT -5
That and the vast majority of the info wasn't available - there wasn't significant "research" done until people started caring about recording minutiae and that really started to come into its own in the early 90s at the earliest. Pro audio sources are the best game in town for htat, not guitarist stuff. The Kramer interviews, the Roger Meyer ones, etc are going to be the relatively authoritative there, but they didn't keep notes like you'd want because for them...this was another session. But on Red House etc Hendrix used the SGs and the Vs live almost exclusively except Woodstock, and if you're gunning to replicate his tone, the live will be more practical to achieve since you likely aren't going to have Neve boards and Pultecs and RCA ribbons and.... at a bar gig. kramer finnaly admitted in a recent interview that jimi used a Fender amp i think a showman on vodoo chilie after years of speculation He's changed his story over the years a lot, usually in time to sell something. Don't get me wrong, he's as close as we get, but.... Also realistically, the difference between the early Marshalls of Jimi's lifetime and the period Fenders was pretty slim at insane volume, which given the Marshall evolution from the Bassman topology ain't really surprising. Line blurs even more when you go into the period fuzzes.
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Post by Leftee on Nov 24, 2023 10:13:05 GMT -5
From an amp perspective, there is a pretty clear view of the JTM 45/100s he used live. And PRS did a great job of bottling that tone in the HDRX series. I have the least of these - the 20w. But it really does a fine job of emulating those rigs.
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 24, 2023 13:34:27 GMT -5
From an amp perspective, there is a pretty clear view of the JTM 45/100s he used live. And PRS did a great job of bottling that tone in the HDRX series. I have the least of these - the 20w. But it really does a fine job of emulating those rigs. Yep, the live amp situation is easy to verify. The studio stuff, well...the promoters with only their stories to sell in their irrelevant retirement....can always "remember" something new.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 24, 2023 16:37:25 GMT -5
any thing live has been put throufh a studio mixing board. people have tried for decades to nail Band of Gypys sound and cant for this vary reason
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 25, 2023 5:47:20 GMT -5
any thing live has been put throufh a studio mixing board. people have tried for decades to nail Band of Gypys sound and cant for this vary reason It's FAR more than a "Mixing board" for the studio sound. Far, far more.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 25, 2023 10:21:01 GMT -5
I am an advocate for exploring gear, but if there is only one case in the world for gear not making a difference and "tone is in the fingers" ruling the day, it is with Hendrix. People who can nail his attack and that funny slightly behind the beat thing he did can nail his tone with a PRS and a Mesa no problem. I see it from time to time online, usually some guitar teacher trying to branch out and do some YouTube lessons.
Dweezil Zappa talked about his dad's technique as "the chicken and the spider"; his left hand was a bit spidery as it sort of lurked around the fingerboard, and his right hand attack sort of pecked at the strings. If you want to nail the Zappa guitar tone, it helps to remember that, and if you watch Dweezil play his dad's stuff, you can tell he morphs a little, and it is like a switch was hit to suddenly get Frank's tone. Everyone stares at Jimi's right hand (fingerboard), but there is some magic going on with his left (picking) hand.
Gear matters a lot of the time. Want the B.B. King sound of the second half of his career? You need that ebony fingerboard for that sharp and boomy attack - you won't get it with a standard 335. Play a Lucille or an ES-355 and you'll know exactly what I mean. Want to get the Byrds jangle? Play with pedals and EQ all you want, you won't get it until you get your hands on a Ric 12. '80s hard rock crunch? A JCM-800 and closed back cab will do something for you that no modeler will accomplish. I can hear the difference between capacitor dielectrics and I can hear one of Alex Lifeson's Les Pauls has the pickups too close on the live show in Rio, likely at "factory spec" which is too high. I can hear the difference in brands of fretwire and between bleached and unbleached bone. These things DO matter, but they all have their place and their own degree of impact on the tone. The more you hear, the more you realize that small adjustments don't matter that much. Get enough of them and stack them up and you have a big deal - this is often why a budget guitar will seem to not have any tone - no single thing is responsible, it is just a bunch of things that on their own won't make a difference, but stack them all together and you get something more. But.... SRV and Jimi are both the classic examples I'd give for it making less of a difference because they used SO much different pieces of gear over the years. Even SRV's #1.... how many recordings did he use it on? 60%? 70%? That leaves a lot where he didn't use it. He used pretty much every amp under the sun over his career. There were slight differences to his sound, but very few listeners will be able to hear much of a change.
So.... yeah. Batteries. Maybe I'll switch to a pignose amp. Maybe a Mini-Twin. Get that stupid AC current out of the picture completely.
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 25, 2023 10:56:24 GMT -5
Yea, I feel you there. I've played a documented Hendrix strat, and you know what? I sounded like ME.
It also wasn't magical - I preferred my own '64 L Plate Mustang and '65 Mustang far more by any standard, even though the small scale and I are not great friends (then again, as a 6'8" monster with big hands, anything short of 30" scale seems....small scale!)
I had a Vox wah with vinyl bag too in near mint condition. It sounded good, but sucked tone for YeARS when it wasn't on and a bit when it was.
But at the end of the day, the right guitar in the right hands is all it takes.
But I still sound like me on a properly set up $200 Squier - I may not be happy, but I can do my job.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 25, 2023 13:20:40 GMT -5
I am an advocate for exploring gear, but if there is only one case in the world for gear not making a difference and "tone is in the fingers" ruling the day, it is with Hendrix. People who can nail his attack and that funny slightly behind the beat thing he did can nail his tone with a PRS and a Mesa no problem. i would like to hear and see that
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Nov 25, 2023 13:21:36 GMT -5
any thing live has been put throufh a studio mixing board. people have tried for decades to nail Band of Gypys sound and cant for this vary reason It's FAR more than a "Mixing board" for the studio sound. Far, far more. No kidding LOL
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 25, 2023 13:53:48 GMT -5
I kinda question why Jimi would be anyone's hero if his primary talent was actually just picking out really good guitars and batteries.
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 25, 2023 16:13:50 GMT -5
I kinda question why Jimi would be anyone's hero if his primary talent was actually just picking out really good guitars and batteries. That's all he did all day, ya know. He personally drained them with Cynthia Plastercaster in her personal toybox.
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Post by Lesterstrat on Nov 25, 2023 21:43:50 GMT -5
I always run a .052 on the high E for that FAT tone!
Love,
Blues Man Jackhammer Hands
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Nov 26, 2023 5:36:33 GMT -5
Even SRV's #1.... how many recordings did he use it on? 60%? 70%? That leaves a lot where he didn't use it. He used pretty much every amp under the sun over his career. Exactly. Studio and live they usually had at least a pair of Fender Supers, a Dumble (each one is kinda unique) and a Marshall Major, and a Vibratone, all running *simultaneously*, all connected via a *passive* splitter box, so expect some tone suck from paralleled input impedances, and they freely mixed and matched the sounds from each amp to get what was required on the day. I've never once seen or heard an SRV clone do a setup like that to "nail the SRV tone". As I've often said, go check out Johan Segeborn on YouTube take one amp and one guitar, swap the speaker cab and it can sound SO different you'd swear a different guitar and amp were used. But do the SRV or Hendrix cork sniffers insist on the "right" speakers? Nope, just about never ever. The whole "Fender + TS9 = THE srv tone", or "strat + Marshall = hendrix" is as much nonsense as saying "pumpkin + sugar = pumpkin pie". Hell to the no!
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 26, 2023 9:18:49 GMT -5
Even SRV's #1.... how many recordings did he use it on? 60%? 70%? That leaves a lot where he didn't use it. He used pretty much every amp under the sun over his career. Exactly. Studio and live they usually had at least a pair of Fender Supers, a Dumble (each one is kinda unique) and a Marshall Major, and a Vibratone, all running *simultaneously*, all connected via a *passive* splitter box, so expect some tone suck from paralleled input impedances, and they freely mixed and matched the sounds from each amp to get what was required on the day. I've never once seen or heard an SRV clone do a setup like that to "nail the SRV tone". As I've often said, go check out Johan Segeborn on YouTube take one amp and one guitar, swap the speaker cab and it can sound SO different you'd swear a different guitar and amp were used. But do the SRV or Hendrix cork sniffers insist on the "right" speakers? Nope, just about never ever. The whole "Fender + TS9 = THE srv tone", or "strat + Marshall = hendrix" is as much nonsense as saying "pumpkin + sugar = pumpkin pie". Hell to the no! Yea, there's a guy on Youtube (Circle of Tone) who spends a LOT of effort recreating studio tones, right speakers, mics, outboard gear, etc to a point where the AI gives him copyright strikes regularly. He'll use a similar type of guitar most of the time, but...not chasing things like batteries at ALL.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Nov 26, 2023 10:24:13 GMT -5
I'm just now remembering a Buddy Guy show I saw.... early 2000s maybe? At one point during a longer jam he does little tributes to other guitarists he likes. One was Jimi, and he switches it up and plays Jimi style, and his tone changes dramatically and sounds a lot like him. Identical? No. But a lot. He didn't adjust any knobs. He didn't hit any pedals. He definitely didn't change any batteries. Same rig he was playing before for a "Buddy Guy" tone. Maybe he moved his pickup switch... it was a long time ago. Can't say.
To be fair, Jimi borrowed a lot from Buddy Guy so it isn't THAT far of a change, but still. Great proof of concept.
If you're around enough players who can do this, you find yourself thinking about gear differently. Ever hear someone nail an EVH tone with a Peavey Bandit?
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 26, 2023 12:49:53 GMT -5
If you're around enough players who can do this, you find yourself thinking about gear differently. Ever hear someone nail an EVH tone with a Peavey Bandit? Yea, I knew a guy who sounded amazing with a Bandit - whether doing straight ahead jazz, rock, or anything in between. It was all him. I've never sounded good through a Peavey tone stack, and it's not for lack of trying. To be fair, he played my stage rig once and handed it back, "It sounds better when you do it", so sometimes it's a case of the player with teh gear not the other way around!
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Post by LTB on Dec 6, 2023 17:11:25 GMT -5
When I saw Hendrix in 1970 at Dallas Memorial Auditorium he used a Strat. Guess I never knew he ever used a Gibson SG.
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