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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 12, 2024 22:29:28 GMT -5
Like my thread in the instrument repair forum, I have a few other "family heirlooms" I am the temporary caretaker off. One of those is another of my Dad's personal items ... his chair. In reality it is nothing more than a very old wooden chair. What made the chair unique is that it resided at our kitchen table, and it was the only chair my dad ever sat in when at the kitchen table. All the other chairs were of more modern (at the time) design with padded seats and backs, etc. Dad had this old wooden chair because of his unique way of sitting. Dad sat in the chair with his feet on the seat of the chair, squatted down with knees up at his chest. This was a position Dad found to be completely natural to him. Outside, if he was just sitting around talking to friends or taking a break from a task, this was how he sat on the ground. Because of this unique sitting style, the old wooden chair developed a wear pattern. From my earliest recollections I only remember the chair as being painted white. That white paint always showed the white paint worn off to bare wood where Dad's feet were positioned on the chair. My Dad died in 1988 and Mom remained in the house until the early 90s. At a point in time Mom came to live with me here in Las Vegas. Her house was sold to my cousin Troy. Troy bought the house with many of the possessions from our family still there. When Mom left and the house was sold some things were taken out, but quite a bit remained. One of the things that remained was Dad's chair. The old chair was somewhat lost in the fog of the past but did come to mind for me on occasion. Sometime in the late 2000s Queenie and I went up to the old hometown to visit and check things out. We found Troy there at the house (he lives there) and caught up a bit on the past. I hadn't seen Troy in decades by then. The mention of Dad's chair came up and Troy offered it to me. I was surprised that after all the years Dad's chair was still around. Even Troy having grown up in the same town and actually on the same block knew the significance of Dad's chair. Troy realized the chair belonged in the correct branch of the family. Queenie and I brought the chair to Las Vegas where it assumed a spot in our bedroom for all the years since. The chair has some problems. Troy had repainted the chair (white of course) which concealed all the foot wear-pattern my Dad had put into the paint for all those prior years. the chair has a giant crack through the center of the seat, a severely cracked rung below the seat and a few other minor issues. Structurally though from the seat down the chair is solid as ever. When I got the chair home I immediately wanted to "restore" the foot wear-pattern to the seat. I started stripping the seat and was then sidetracked by life and left it. This is how I left the chair. (it was a start, I suppose) The Chair by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Now with the Violin project pretty much behind me I had found second wind on the chair. I've done quite a bit of additional stripping. believe it or not I found the easiest and least messy way of stripping these many layers of paint off was to simply scrape it off with a razor blade. The most severe problem with the chair is the mentioned crack through the center of the seat. It seems to me... if I don't solve this structural problem we eventually won't have a chair. Dad's chair crack 1 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I'll get the paint stripping completed then decide how to deal with the crack. I have a couple of thoughts on how to approach it, but as of this moment, I'm still undecided.
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Post by RufusTeleStrat on Jan 13, 2024 12:13:27 GMT -5
Just as a suggestion you could use the luthiers method of injecting hot hide glue into the crack and clamping it together.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 13, 2024 12:24:45 GMT -5
I have thought through two options.
Option #1: Like you say. Glue and clamp pretty much as is.
Option #2: create a temporary support structure to keep the seat in alignment and square. Then (using my table saw) cut out the crack to solid wood on both sides. Then install a new strip of wood (of appropriate width) then glue and clamp creating a very structurally solid seat again.
As for option #1 I would need to do a “test clamp” to determine how well the gap will close. The gap is inconsistent from end to end, especially wide in the center area.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 13, 2024 15:36:26 GMT -5
I wouldn't use hide glue for anything that is gap filling. It also isn't something that would need to be reversed (unless you mess up).
I'd want to see how much it draws together naturally. if you can clamp it to get it reasonably tight, just use a regular wood glue of your choice. If it comes together side to side but doesn't line up top to bottom, you can use clamps along the different axis and clamp flat blocks to align it flat. Packing tape or wax paper will keep the glue from sticking.
If it doesn't draw in closer, you could (or someone with more woodworking prowess if it seems too much) inlay a bowtie brace. I may do that to the chair I'm sitting on now, actually... it is an old chair but not quite as preservation worthy so I may just get some regular steel hardware from the hardware store and screw something in.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 13, 2024 17:40:44 GMT -5
you could inlay a bowtie brace. I am strongly considering cutting a couple of dado slots (with my router) across the underside then inserting strips of wood to secure the joint and also add horizontal rigidity to the seat. That is well within my skillset. My glue of choice would be Titebond. Edited to add: If I can't close that gap tightly, I will go to option #2 without hesitation or regret.
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Post by RufusTeleStrat on Jan 13, 2024 20:01:23 GMT -5
The only reason I suggested Hide over titebond was the tendency for the glue to draw tighter over time.
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Post by Taildragger on Jan 13, 2024 21:40:44 GMT -5
Love weathered/worn objects that "tell a personal story".
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Post by Ragtop on Jan 14, 2024 6:01:49 GMT -5
I wonder how old that chair is?
Larry, could you tell how many coats of paint are on it?
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 14, 2024 8:01:26 GMT -5
I wonder how old that chair is? Larry, could you tell how many coats of paint are on it? It has the original varnish on parts that don't get much wear. It has a dull bluish grey I am finding in many areas, then a flesh color layer, then an eggshell greyish white, then the more brilliant white of which I'd say there are at least two or three coats. The paint is all very brittle, which is why the razor scraping is working so well. Hard to see a lot of the greyish blue on the top of the seat back here, but this is a shot of a partial stripped area. Paint layers by Larry Madsen, on Flickr
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Post by Taildragger on Jan 14, 2024 11:15:51 GMT -5
The archaeology of seating implements...
You should carbon 14 date those finish sediments.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 14, 2024 21:12:55 GMT -5
Some of the other needed repairs: Broken rung. This is after it was glued and clamped. I never took a PIC of it broken. It was not broken in two, but it could have easily gotten to that point with just a foot pressing on it. Broken rung repair 2 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Broken rung repair 1 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr This is a chunk of wood broken out. Chipped out wood on rung by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Replacement patch. Chip out wood repaired by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Then I have the top of one side rail holding the seat-back that is split off and the wood now gone. I'll get a piece of wood glued in and shaped to resolve this problem as well. back post damage by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Not to mention, all the paint is scraped off at this point. Chair stripped front by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Chair stripped back by Larry Madsen, on Flickr It's pretty rough at this point, but now I can get into the final repairs and then clean it up and prep if for a new finish.
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Post by Ragtop on Jan 15, 2024 4:43:26 GMT -5
Lookin' good, Larry.
Is that oak?
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 15, 2024 9:24:30 GMT -5
Some parts appear to (probably) be oak or ash. Other parts look to be something very different.
In the areas most exposed to “the elements”, due to lack of a surface finish, the wood has softened up a bit. This being the edges of the seat, the top of the seat-back panel and some areas of the seat top.
I will remove the seat-back structure today. This will allow me to work on the seat top in the way I intend.
I do not intend to disassemble the leg structure below the seat at all. It is structurally very solid. I can do everything I need to do with all that in place and attached to the seat panel.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 15, 2024 10:13:16 GMT -5
you could inlay a bowtie brace. I am strongly considering cutting a couple of dado slots (with my router) across the underside then inserting strips of wood to secure the joint and also add horizontal rigidity to the seat. That is well within my skillset. My glue of choice would be Titebond. Edited to add: If I can't close that gap tightly, I will go to option #2 without hesitation or regret. I was going to weigh in on bowties vs. strips, but I'd be talking out my arse since I don't know for sure. I do think the primary function would be to reinforce the glue joint - glue joints are best to supplement a mechanical joint OR when two pieces are not trying to actively escape each other. So, if you're gluing up a panel and the two pieces sit flush against each other dry, the glue joint will be crazy strong. If the two pieces need aggressive clamping to draw together, the glue joint will eventually fail because the wood is constantly trying to pull away. Talking out of my butt, I'd probably see if it draws in just with my own brute strength or just with a quick-grip squeeze clamp, and I'd call that good enough for just glue - more aggressive clamping with blocks and F-clamps would probably need a supplement. The inserted reinforcements would be to have a mechanical element drawing those things together rather than reinforcing your butt when you sit on it... not sure how effective the latter would be. Where are the Moe's cabinet makers? (My reference here is with guitars - if a piece of wood has decided it wants to move, it absolutely will move. Wood is crazy strong like that. This is why I don't bother to reinforce dry weather cracks - if the guitar dries out again, it is going to crack again. That cute little clete will do nothing. But, the bowtie inlays are a known woodworking fix that happen to be impractical on guitars. The chair crack could be one of those cracks, or it could have just spread from arse pressure over the years.) In either case, leave empty space on the ends of the strips/bowties, which allow for wood movement. So, if you're doing strips, the strip should be a bit shorter than the channel it lies in.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 15, 2024 11:00:28 GMT -5
This is a quick easy example of what I would be doing with the "strips". This is a 12" ruler, the strips would be somewhat shorter since my router has to do the work within the confines of the leg braces. I anticipate the strips would be 3/4" wide and recessed about 1/2" to 5/8" deep into the seat from the bottom. I would install two and maybe even three of these strips. They would be glued in with titebond and possibly even screws. There will be no ability for the wood seat to separate. I certainly understand your point regarding expansion though. I intend to seal the entire project with an oil finish (maybe Danish oil) before I take it to primer and paint. The oil finish would go on first since the point of the project is to have visible wood showing when it's completed. I would probably let this oil finish dry for months, maybe even a year before I proceed with the paint process. Though I have never been a carpenter for a living, it is the trade I learned in school. I am confident what I describe will be a viable long term solution. IMG_5991 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 15, 2024 19:50:17 GMT -5
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 15, 2024 20:08:33 GMT -5
Ah, the strips make more sense now. I was picturing something closer to popsicle stick size intended just to hold a glue joint shut, and I was imagining that being quite anemic. I'll be curious to find out how well that crack pulls together.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 15, 2024 20:25:07 GMT -5
I'll be curious to find out how well that crack pulls together. I have a single bar camp across it now as a test. It has tightened up quite a bit. It's a bit of a two stage problem. The seat is also "bowed" upward a tiny bit in the center (at the crack). I can see that by clamping the center of the seat downward a bit the crack will close even more. Also of note, I have just one bar clamp on it right now. To actually clamp it with glue I would use two and probably three clamps. I'm feeling like there is a better chance of "Option #1" actually working. I was quite skeptical of it initially. I'll get deeper into the seat project tomorrow.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 15, 2024 20:34:59 GMT -5
Is the bottom of the chair seat dead flat? If you have a piece of plywood/mdf/other flat wood, you can run it along the bottom of the crack, and have smaller blocks on the top to clamp it vertically as well as horizontally. I've gotten crazy good results doing stuff like that. Packing tape or wax paper will keep it from sticking to the squeeze out.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 15, 2024 20:42:56 GMT -5
Is the bottom of the chair seat dead flat? It does not seem to be flat. There seems to be a "cup/bowl" curve to it from side to side. The seat area on the top surface is also scooped for fanny comfort in addition to the overall curve. The crack pushing upward at the center is in defiance of the basic shape of the "bowl". PIC: The center still needs to come down a bit which will increase the basic bowl curve across the bottom. IMG_5996 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 16, 2024 12:35:08 GMT -5
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 18, 2024 11:03:05 GMT -5
Ah, if it isn't dead flat side to side, I'd probably do what I do to line up cracks on guitar tops & backs when there is a radius. Something like a semi-flexible plywood (hobby grade stuff... 3/16"? 1/8"?) or a thin piece of plexiglas will flex with the clamps and it won't try to bend the chair seat flat, but it will line up top and bottom because those move more freely and that is where the clamps are pushing. If you tried it with something really rigid, it would try pulling the bottom of the chair flat like whatever board you're using, and create other problems.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 18, 2024 20:19:34 GMT -5
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 22, 2024 13:55:00 GMT -5
Three days off and I'm back on Dad's Chair project. I put in a strip of oak down the center to fill my cut-out (eliminating the crack) in the seat Here it is in clamps. Chair seat glued and clamped by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I'll let this set until tomorrow, pull off the clamps and see what I have. The braces I used to make the cut are still there, they are now clamped in position instead of screwed into position. Obviously, the screws would make the side to side clamping action impossible, so they had to go away. Edited to add: As it sits there now the legs are all seated nicely on the flat countertop, so hopefully nothing changes on that. I'd hate to finish this process and find the chair to be warped in some goofy way.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 22, 2024 14:07:06 GMT -5
After typing that last edit, I decided I could remove the big C-clamps from those braces. If the tension in the chair were going to pull it into a warp ... pulling these C-clamps now gives me a better idea of what to expect. I can say, the chair did not change at all. Still sitting perfectly flat on its legs. I don't know if I dodged a bullet here, but it looks to be heading in a good direction.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jan 22, 2024 14:17:29 GMT -5
I have my dad's old desk which is a peculiarly small piece with a cut piece of glass that fits the top. The chair is a small wide bench one that's been banished to the garage for the time being. I've thought about stripping and refinishing with shellac but fear I'd screw it up. Was thinking about him, gone for almost 30 years and would've been 96 today.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 22, 2024 15:06:09 GMT -5
Was thinking about him, gone for almost 30 years and would've been 96 today. Well happy B-day to your father ... here or not is still his day of birth. I do similar thinking myself quite often. Mine has been gone for 35 years and would be 118 if still living.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 23, 2024 11:07:24 GMT -5
The crack insert/repair is done. I have the surface sanded to flush. I will need to redrill that center seat-back stile hole. I feel a lot better about this result as opposed to just trying to reglue that rough crack. Seat Crack Repair by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Seat Crack Insert by Larry Madsen, on Flickr
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Post by RufusTeleStrat on Jan 23, 2024 11:45:56 GMT -5
Looking good
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