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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 19, 2024 10:23:34 GMT -5
And acquiring more guitar tech tools.
One thing I notice is the commercial availability of fret leveling files. These files seem to be six to seven inches long. Then I notice on the videos I watch, most of the techs do not use the commercially available files. They seem to use a much longer straight "level" with sandpaper.
What opinions do those of us on this forum have regarding to basic tools needed?
Obviously, I would need a crowning file and other tools as well.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Feb 19, 2024 21:20:32 GMT -5
First fret level I ever did was with a six inch diamond plate. Came out fine. That said, I prefer the beams and sand paper for that job as it's more reliable with regard to getting a flat plane. But I'm a tool junky, including in my work as a cabinet maker, and I like having nice tools. But really, you don't have to spend a ton; there's more slop involved in a guitar then the internet would generally have you believe (not THAT much, but you ain't gonna fly the thing to Mars or anything).
For fret work you'll need tools to level, crown, and polish; a file for dressing the ends; necessary tools for making nuts and saddles. From reading your posts in the past I think you have all but the leveling and crowning stuff. If you're gonna do re-frets you'll wanna be able to pre-bend the frets and install them (a fret hammer is fine); a good pair of nippers to clip the ends; a good file and/or jig for beveling the ends. You may also decide to sand the fretboard which can be done with most tools that you'll use to level the frets.
Obviously there's a ton of info out there about this stuff. Do a little research and decide which way to go based on your preferences and budget. If you're nervous about a given task, don't use your most prized guitar the first time around. Of course you know this already. And don't count on StuCrack for everything; always look around if you don't want to spend a ton. Just yesterday I was gonna order some saddle blanks (new used Gibson Advanced Jumbo-yay me!); SM wants seventeen (!!!) bucks for an unbleached one (why they're more expensive than bleached ones, no idea). Ended up getting ten of them from Philadelphia Luthier Tools for twenty bucks. That's just one example...
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 20, 2024 0:33:26 GMT -5
I do have a few tools. I have a plentiful Assortment of nut files.
Wondering about how valuable one of those straight edges with the recesses for frets. Obviously allowing us to butt the straight edge on the actual fretboard … as opposed to simply across the tops of the frets.
It does seem to me this would provide a clearer look at what is going on with the neck bow.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Feb 20, 2024 7:13:23 GMT -5
Yep, nice thing to have for sure.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 20, 2024 9:38:15 GMT -5
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 20, 2024 10:35:35 GMT -5
I do have a few tools. I have a plentiful Assortment of nut files. Wondering about how valuable one of those straight edges with the recesses for frets. Obviously allowing us to butt the straight edge on the actual fretboard … as opposed to simply across the tops of the frets. It does seem to me this would provide a clearer look at what is going on with the neck bow. I bought one of those 2 sided notched straight edges but find little application for it. I usually just offset the notches and use it as a straight edge across the top of the frets. If using it to discover any irregularities with the fretboard itself I wouldn't know what to do about it anyway, lol. Pulling frets and leveling a fretboard flat is way above my pay grade.😄
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Post by Leftee on Feb 20, 2024 10:44:07 GMT -5
I’m with him^
I don’t have one of those either. Not to say I won’t have one in the future.
Most of my work is on new necks with some occasional work on used necks/frets.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 20, 2024 10:46:11 GMT -5
I purchased a couple of things for my recent build from "Philadelphia Luthier Tools". There appears to be quite a difference in price from this supplier compared to StewMac. Fret Rocker, for example: www.ebay.com/itm/121203019549I have no idea how "quality" might vary across the board on items. I'm sure when it comes to filing tools it probably is something to be aware of before a purchse.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 20, 2024 10:53:53 GMT -5
To me, fret leveling appears to be a fairly straight forward procedure. It does seem having the neck as dead straight as possible is a prerequisite. Which is exactly where my question about the straight edge comes from.
In this process it seems to me the fret board is the critical thing to be aware of. If I attempt to get a neck dead straight using fret tops that are not (or might not be) level, it could be misleading.
As I see it, if one wants to really "perfect" (whatever that means) the playability of the neck, fret leveling would provide a great benefit to the end result.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 20, 2024 11:04:17 GMT -5
I've used Philadelphia Luthier Supplies a number of times, good experiences with both price and product. My collection includes nut slotting files, a file for dressing fret ends, 3 different sized crowning files, fret shields, a few different radius blocks (that I really never use), a fret rocker, string radius gauges (retired), a string action ruler, a cheap "Great Planes" bar sander that I glue sandpaper on for leveling (I really need something better), a Stew Mac neck support caul and a variety of homemade and re-purposed this and that's. I'll frequently order some replacement hobby micromesh sheets from 1500-12000 for fret finishing.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Feb 20, 2024 18:56:54 GMT -5
I agree that the notched straight edge is the way to go in order to get the neck as flat as possible before leveling. That said, it's fairly unlikely that a given neck will flatten completely via the truss rod; as flat as possible is what is necessary barring serious twists, etc. Still, I like to know what I'm dealing with and I don't have a problem yanking the frets and sanding the board if need be (I don't do this for a living so I'm not dealing with other folks' wallets).
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 20, 2024 20:10:26 GMT -5
My method of flattening the neck for leveling is to get it as flat as possible under a straight edge first. Then I'll stripe the frets with a purple sharpie (for some reason I see it better than black). Having the neck braced and flat as possible, I'll lightly scrub with my sanding beam back and forth a couple of times. I'll then inspect for even scratches, if there are any gaps in the middle of the neck I'll tighten the trussrod a bit more. Restripe with sharpie and repeat as necessary. Once I'm confident it's as flat as I want it I move on, letting the lowest fret(s) dictate how far I need to go.
I've done maybe 5 of my own this way and it has worked for me.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 22, 2024 21:03:55 GMT -5
I'm late to the game, but I'll toss in anyway.
Fret dress is easier to do than a setup... but if you can't do a good setup, you can't do a fret dress. You need to be comfortable with neck geometry and be able to recut nut slots after, which will often be a bit too high.
For tools, you don't need any specialty tools from a guitar company. Of the specialty tools, the crowning file is the best quality-of-life enhancer. I use the offset diamond one, but it is too expensive for home use... unless you just really want it. The only one I've used that I really don't like is the dogleg one with the changeable pieces. If a file doesn't look like it can be used over a body it actually can be, it is just a bit more fussy and you'll want to be extra careful, maybe taping those cereal box cut outs on the body on the side.
Stick on sandpaper and a good, flat block is the best. I prefer something light weight, I seem to get better results when they're light. It could just be in my head. But, that is why I don't like the heavy plates. I have some Great Planes bar sanders like Auf Kiltre mentioned in 11" and 22", and my primary bar for refrets is a 24" aluminum bar that came from LMII. Neither of these are currently available. I also have a piece of maple that I use for spot levels that is probably around 9" that works great. One of these days I'll figure out how to make something that will be accurate, because I'd like to have a couple blocks in the 16"-18" range.
For seeking out high frets and tackling little humps, you don't need a long block. Short blocks can kind of "ride the rails" and the more subtle rises and falls will be harder to catch, as will and subtle twist. You can do a dang good fret level with a short block if you have a decent eye. Which block I use is sometimes dictated by whether the customer is paying for the work or if I just need to tackle a few nuisance frets to get it to set up right. Or, if I want to be more conservative with fret material, I may not be able to get it as straight as I want, and I may have to settle for a short block.
You definitely don't need a radius block for fret leveling.
I don't personally use a straight edge. I will sometimes use them on refrets, but I can usually track flatness by watching sanding marks under my block. As mentioned above, you can tell as you start working if you're working with more of a forward bow or a back bow and you can tweak it a bit as you move along. If you think it'll be helpful for you, then go for it. I don't have a fret rocker. I will sometimes grab my Starrett 6" rule to check if I'm setting something up and I suspect a fret. The rocker can lie to you sometimes if you have it at an angle over the fret and it is just dropping off the radius, or if there is fall-away on an acoustic. But again, it is a perfectly fine tool and if it brings value for you then go for it. Just don't feel like you absolutely have to load up your shopping cart.
For the polish, I run sandpaper progressively up the grits along the grain of the fingerboard. I keep bins of pre-cut pieces. If it is a finished fingerboard, it gets taped off with painter's tape. I usually start around 320, this will depend on what file you use. 400, 600, 800, then something in the thousands. Steel wool. For a little extra shine, a fingernail buffer can be nice. I haven't used the micromesh sets, but they sound lovely. How fine you go depends on your aesthetics, and how much a little grit on the frets for bends is tolerable. With regular frets the grittiness goes away pretty quickly. With stainless, you have to get it all out. In those cases, I have a stationary buffer just for metal that I use, but there's a variety of ways to deal with it. If you have a little buffing wheel with a rotary tool that can work nicely. If I remember right, FDP old-timer wrnchbndr loved his Foredom for this. You'll get the hang of it and figure out what you like. It isn't rocket science.
tl;dr, the plethora of tools available make it seem like this is super specialized stuff, but it really isn't. Those tools are mostly quality of life enhancers. Some are silly, some are only worth while if you're in a production atmosphere, some are very subjective, and SOME are universally useful.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 22, 2024 21:10:52 GMT -5
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 22, 2024 21:24:07 GMT -5
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Post by Pinetree on Feb 23, 2024 8:03:00 GMT -5
I have "one of those straight edges with the recesses for frets" with Gibson scale on one side and Fender scale on the other... It's a great tool. So is one of those trapezoid shaped things to check for high frets.
A set of feelers, and a rule that measures in 64th are my go-to tools.
Plus some quality hex wrenches in both Metric and Freedom Units.. GOOD screwdrivers and a bunch of files are all you really need.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 23, 2024 10:06:06 GMT -5
I’ve not gone to the slotted ruler because I straighten necks using my beam as a guide. So I straighten them from the tops of the frets, not the fretboard. From there it’s the fret rocker to find the high frets.
Eventually I’ll add the slotted ruler. I just haven’t made it a priority.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 23, 2024 10:19:57 GMT -5
I've seen it suggested to use a scrap piece of Corian or granite if you can find one in the right size to serve as a sanding beam. Glue your abrasive to it and you have a weighted fret leveler. I haven't sought out that option but might ask around the next time I go to the Home Despot.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 23, 2024 11:15:46 GMT -5
I see the linked beam, above, is from PLT. I imagine it’s a good’un.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 23, 2024 11:21:02 GMT -5
Yeah, that looks like a good block.
I prefer light weight over heavy, but that's just me. And, that is mostly coming from refrets rather than fret leveling. Pushing down too hard can distort the plane of the fingerboard/fret tops, especially if the paper is worn or plugged. Not much of an issue with fret leveling, so don't worry about my odd preference too much.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 23, 2024 11:44:38 GMT -5
I have yet to do a refret. I have a junker neck to do my first. One of these days (months/years) I will.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Feb 23, 2024 22:06:03 GMT -5
As someone who has worked with corian a bit, I wouldn't trust that stuff to be flat, or particularly stiff for that matter. Just sayin'...
This conversation reminds me; I've been getting bombarded with StuCrack emails for months now, lots of "sales" (you know, 7.5% off on...) but still I wonder if they aren't suffering a bit for business now that there are so many other options available these days. Thoughts?
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 24, 2024 8:08:53 GMT -5
As someone who has worked with corian a bit, I wouldn't trust that stuff to be flat, or particularly stiff for that matter. I agree, and also in the case of stone, brittle. It does appear the purpose made beams are machined flat and straight on the business side.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Feb 24, 2024 12:08:46 GMT -5
As someone who has worked with corian a bit, I wouldn't trust that stuff to be flat, or particularly stiff for that matter. Just sayin'... This conversation reminds me; I've been getting bombarded with StuCrack emails for months now, lots of "sales" (you know, 7.5% off on...) but still I wonder if they aren't suffering a bit for business now that there are so many other options available these days. Thoughts? I've seen that, too. I assumed they painted themselves into a corner like Bed Bath & Beyond where the sales/deals are so common no one bothers buying when there isn't a sale. But, who knows. There was definitely a wave where young guitarists thought setting up a little shop was going to be a path to easy money. There used to be a constant flow of people putting out a shingle advertising as "guitar doctor", and then I'd hear some awful reviews, redo some of their work, and they'd be gone in a year. That has been pretty quiet lately.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 24, 2024 18:05:14 GMT -5
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 24, 2024 18:49:52 GMT -5
Yeah, the fret end file at Stew Mac is really good, IMO. Also, the micromesh 1500-12000 hobby kit available at Amazon gets a lot of use around my house. You might also consider some kind of file to run the edges of the fretboard to knock down any fret sprout before cleaning up the ends.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Mar 6, 2024 10:09:23 GMT -5
Grabbed one of these. Slightly banana shaped, so will send it back. It probably isn't too big of a deal, but I want dead straight. Probably asking too much from this price point. Other than that, it had a nice look/feel to it. It has plastic bumpers on the ends, but they seem silly to me. I get why they're there, but reducing your sanding length will increase the likelihood you'll clock something with the end. I put a piece of thick tape over a nut as a bit of a bumper and it won't save it from a hard strike, but will from a glancing blow. If it was straight, I'd be in love with the thing. It is a perfect size and really light. It is narrower than any of my other blocks, which will make it less clumsy for a lot of people. I'm checking straightness with a 24" Starrett ruler that my co-worker has at his bench. I checked both sides to be sure it wasn't the ruler.
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chucksmi
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Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
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Post by chucksmi on Mar 12, 2024 6:06:22 GMT -5
If you use a beam or a block make sure it has the correct radius - the one mistake you can make on a level and re-crown is to lose the fretboard radius on the frets. I've had to re-fret several guitars where this was a problem.
Good news is radiused blocks are so cheap these days you can buy a whole set for less than $100. I even find overstocked Stew Mac stuff on TEMU now.
Level, recrown, and polish. There's also a new tool that you can re-crown and it sets the fret height as you do it. Haven't tried it yet but looks feasible.
Chuck
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 12, 2024 11:24:00 GMT -5
Many of my guitars are "compound" radius.
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chucksmi
Wholenote
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
Age: I saw Jerry Live
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Post by chucksmi on Mar 12, 2024 12:32:21 GMT -5
Larry, as much as it pains me to say so, the only way I've found to get a good level re-crown on a compound is to Plek it. I can't stands the danged things, but to each his own. Personally, I look at them as a solution to a problem that didn't exist. But it sells guitars. Chuck
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