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Post by Vibroluxer on Mar 14, 2024 6:56:08 GMT -5
I don't know what to say about this. I have no ties to the military but this just does not seem right. Why would they do this? I thought this was one of the tenets of West Point, maybe even the whole military, I'm not sure. Wonder what Kris Kristoffson has to say about this.
Just a quick aside: Over the last couple of years I've posted a few threads with a military theme and have always been happily surprised, and educated, by you guys and your remarks. I couldn't ask these questions on just any old forum. So thank you.
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Post by Pinetree on Mar 14, 2024 7:23:17 GMT -5
This thread is probably not going to go well, because anything you could possibly reply will be controversial.
When the military is more concerned with "feelings" and all of the other current buzzwords as opposed to standing ready to bomb the hell out of anyone who dares to cross us, then we're all in trouble.
Sign of the times, I suppose.
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Post by Leftee on Mar 14, 2024 7:31:43 GMT -5
Sometimes things are changed because they’re old. Not that this is a good reason to change things.
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Post by Mike the marksman on Mar 14, 2024 7:34:33 GMT -5
They replaced 'Duty, Honor, Country' with 'Army Values'. If you're a US Army officer cadet, you'd know what those are (Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage).
I don't think it's quite the outrage that *some* outlets are trying to make it.
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Post by Leftee on Mar 14, 2024 9:00:29 GMT -5
Right!
It makes for outrage in a headline - which is so often the case these days.
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Post by Vibroluxer on Mar 14, 2024 9:55:58 GMT -5
They replaced 'Duty, Honor, Country' with 'Army Values'. If you're a US Army officer cadet, you'd know what those are (Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage). I don't think it's quite the outrage that *some* outlets are trying to make it. Thank you for the insights, that helps immensely. |
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Post by reverendrob on Mar 14, 2024 10:54:38 GMT -5
The "Army Values" don't include...country.
Which to me...is a problem.
if we're not a nation, what are we fighting for?
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Post by Mike the marksman on Mar 14, 2024 13:56:57 GMT -5
The "Army Values" don't include...country. The Oath covers that part. "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same" And if you somehow forget that, then there's always the flag on your uniform. |
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Post by Lesterstrat on Mar 14, 2024 14:47:08 GMT -5
This thread is probably not going to go well, because anything you could possibly reply will be controversial. When the military is more concerned with "feelings" and all of the other current buzzwords as opposed to standing ready to bomb the hell out of anyone who dares to cross us, then we're all in trouble. Does that include our own government? Seems to me they’ve “crossed us” far more than any foreign enemy. |
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Post by WireDog on Mar 14, 2024 14:59:40 GMT -5
I don't see the need to tinker with the traditional "Duty, Honor, Country". There's nothing wrong with the Army Values; they have been around for a long time, too. We learned about them in the Leadership schools and they are promotion board questions. To me, they are intrinsically part of what good human being has in their personality anyway. Not surprisingly, the Military has enumerated these values, just as they enumerate how to lace one's boots.
But Duty, Honor, Country has been the iconic slogan that our West Point grads have gone to war with for decades. It's got a history, it's a bit of Americana that is close to the heart of many veterans.
I think "they" are doing it to bit by bit chip away at our foundation until it's unrecognizable.
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009
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Post by 009 on Mar 14, 2024 16:35:49 GMT -5
I don't see the need to tinker with the traditional "Duty, Honor, Country". There's nothing wrong with the Army Values; they have been around for a long time, too. We learned about them in the Leadership schools and they are promotion board questions. To me, they are intrinsically part of what good human being has in their personality anyway. Not surprisingly, the Military has enumerated these values, just as they enumerate how to lace one's boots. But Duty, Honor, Country has been the iconic slogan that our West Point grads have gone to war with for decades. It's got a history, it's a bit of Americana that is close to the heart of many veterans. I think "they" are doing it to bit by bit chip away at our foundation until it's unrecognizable. I agree. "Duty, Honor, Country" is certainly more inspirational, and its import is obvious to all who read it. What percent of the population know the Army Values? (Hey, Martha. What the heck is Army Values?) 0.2% maybe. And for knuckleheads who can't remember them all, this was passed out to all ranks about 25-30 years ago:  |
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Post by reverendrob on Mar 14, 2024 17:04:45 GMT -5
The "Army Values" don't include...country. The Oath covers that part. "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same" And if you somehow forget that, then there's always the flag on your uniform. The oath does, yes. But emphasizing it is ...also important. It was of primary value before, now it's...a secondary afterthought. |
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Post by RockAndRoll on Mar 14, 2024 17:57:45 GMT -5
Have to wonder if "Army Values" will "evolve" to include values other than those originally stated, and if some of the original values will eventually be deemed no longer acceptable.
It seems to leave the door open for redefining what the term "Army Values" encompasses.
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Post by Leftee on Mar 14, 2024 18:36:14 GMT -5
I think this is small fish
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Post by reverendrob on Mar 14, 2024 19:11:42 GMT -5
I think this is small fish Small fish if tradition wasn't HUGE for West Point. It's one of the foundational things in the military - to aspire to, to uphold, to honort he traditions of. Changing things for the sake of change, especially when...it's clunkier and subject to further revision...isn't a good thing. |
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Post by LTB on Mar 14, 2024 22:45:22 GMT -5
I think this is small fish Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell |
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Post by reverendrob on Mar 15, 2024 6:06:30 GMT -5
I think this is small fish Maybe, maybe not. Time will tell Tradition can't be brought back. Don't even have to wait. |
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Post by WireDog on Mar 15, 2024 13:10:57 GMT -5
"Duty, Honor, Country" remains the West Point Motto.
They changed their mission statement, but not the motto. They removed Duty, Honor, Country from the mission statement and inserted the Army Values. The mission statement has been changed many times over the years.
That's no big deal after all.
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