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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 2, 2024 8:29:05 GMT -5
Where do we all land on when it comes to bridge pins being a factor to the tone of an acoustic guitar? I know the discussion often becomes highly contested on the internet with everything from a firm belief that it does to shaming the person asking. Since we're a polite group here I figured I ask.
I bought an inexpensive Yamaha acoustic that comes with plastic (urea) nut, saddle and pins. After addressing the shamefully high nut slots I turned my focus to the bridge. I bought a set of Snakewood bridge pins and a bone saddle, something I previously did on my other inexpensive Yamaha parlor. Unfortunately the pins don't fit well (sit high) because I believe they're a 5 degree taper and the Yamaha likely has a 3 degree taper rout. Using the same strings I fitted the new bone saddle and definitely heard a difference in tone. During the process of taking material off the bottom of the saddle to get the right action I swapped the pins between the snakewoods, an old set of brass pins I had laying around and the stock plastic ones. To my ear the plastic ones and brass ones weren't too dissimilar, perhaps the brass ones having a little less zing. The snakewoods seemed to be the "warmest". I don't think I took enough material off of the bone saddle to make much of a difference in tone, my action started high and still is about 6/64" at the 12th fret on the bass side, lower at the treble side. All things considered I'd probably use the snakewood pins but can't live with the ill fit. I'm not inclined to try and ream the bridge with the right taper.
So is this some psycho acoustic effect I'm hearing or (in your opinion) do bridge pins play a part in an acoustic guitar's tone?
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Post by rickyguitar on Apr 2, 2024 14:59:36 GMT -5
Psycho acoustic. Just cause I like it as a title.
Seems like end pins would have to influence the sound.Did brass increase sustain?
But you know what, I have no idea what my bridge pins are, plastic I suppose.
Psycho acoustic plastic bridge pins. $21.95 a set.
My new retirement plan.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 2, 2024 15:10:00 GMT -5
I didn't overly scrutinize the sound past a "hmmmm, this sounds mellower", etc. It really wasn't the point of the process as much as a side venture while shaping the saddle. I tried something crazy earlier, I "shaped" the snakewood end pins by placing them in a drill motor and using a strip of abrasive wrapped around the upper part of the pin to take down the taper. It actually worked! Didn't break them, smoothed them out with finer grit then gave them a light coat of beeswax. My perception is the guitar sounds a bit mellower, but again, psycho acoustics or magical thinking. My main reason is they're purdier than plastic. 😃
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
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Post by sirWheat on Apr 2, 2024 17:28:15 GMT -5
I recently picked up two sets, one of bone and one of buffalo horn for my newly acquired Advanced Jumbo only to find that either the factory sent it off with the wrong pins or (most likely) the previous owner mucked it up somehow such that the holes in the bridge plate are getting hogged out (purchased the super expensive StuCrack Bridge Saver, will be fixing soon).
I bought the two different sets just for the fun of it to see if there's any discernible difference though I'm not expecting any. I replaced the plastic ones in another acoustic years ago with bone and heard no real difference. I won't say that different pins CAN'T make a difference, but I'm pretty certain that all the stories about night-and-day difference, etc., are clouded by expectation. Of course there has to be SOME difference, I just don't think it will very often be worth mentioning much less noticed by anyone other than the owner of the guitar.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 2, 2024 18:14:12 GMT -5
I'm also guessing that most people who change pins do so when changing strings. That should disqualify any tonal change attributed to anything but new strings.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 3, 2024 20:31:58 GMT -5
Makes a difference, but incredibly small. I really only hear it when going to a really different material, like those giant brass ones that start to make it sound like an electric. So, not as big of a difference as swapping pickups on an electric, but probably more than swapping a tone cap.
That can be random, though. I wouldn't be surprised if on one guitar it makes zero difference, and on another it sounds like you put on different strings or something. Nuts and saddles are like that - sometimes I swap a saddle and it is a huge improvement, many times the difference is barely detectable.
Every set of specialty/aftermarket pins I've seen are oversized. I don't think it is a taper issue. It would need to be reamed out to fit. It is unfortunate because a lot of people would love to do a swap just for funsies like you did to hear for themselves. And as I think about it now, it is also possible that a lot of those larger pins are making a difference by their sheer mass rather than the material.
Pins usually don't touch the string very much. The bridge plate, front of the bridge, and the saddle are the bigger contact points. The pins are just sorta there to keep the ball end from flipping back up out the hole. I'm not entirely sure by what mechanism that they will change the tone.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 4, 2024 8:07:35 GMT -5
Makes a difference, but incredibly small. I really only hear it when going to a really different material, like those giant brass ones I dug up the brass ones out of my parts bin, forgot I even had them. They probably go back to the early 80's when a coworker who was an acoustic and mandolin player raved about them on his Guild. I bought a black Guild dreadnought on his recommendation and eventually tried them. Big knurled tops, they actually fit the Yamaha pretty well. I should probably give them a go some time and try to give an honest evaluation. I could see them adding mass to the bridge and making a minute difference. For now the Snakewood pins stay. Got to take down the bone saddle just a hair on the bass side, but I'm gonna let things settle a bit. I also bought an Allparts pre-slotted bone nut and tapped out the plastic one. It fit fairly well without much effort but when I fitted the strings in I didn't even bother reaching for the files. Ridiculously tight string spacing. I got the original plastic one where I want it so it stays for now. |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 4, 2024 8:53:35 GMT -5
A guitar aficionado that checked out my J200 back when I was about to purchase it was very excited to see it had Rosewood pins.
Not sure how they might impact sound, but he thought they would be worth some cash all on their own.
It’s the guitar up top left here.
As maybe the steal-the-century (for me anyway) I purchased the 73 Gibson J200 Artist w/HSC for $400.00. Back in the late 90s
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Vman
Wholenote
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Post by Vman on Apr 4, 2024 12:41:52 GMT -5
I use ebony on most of my acoustics and bone on two of them. They all sound about the same. The thing about string pins is you can pull them while the guitar is tuned to pitch and the strings stay put. I've done this and lightly strummed and heard no tonal difference, so...
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 4, 2024 14:43:11 GMT -5
I mostly agree that they're cosmetic more than anything, but the other aspect about acoustic guitars is the fact that we never get a true evaluation of how they sound out front as opposed to our playing position. The closest we can come is having someone else with a similar playing style play it.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 4, 2024 21:24:59 GMT -5
Those sound like the brass pins I've seen. Once in a blue moon I get in a guitar with them and the owner swears by them. They do seem to impart some kind of brassy/clangy tone, so the pin contributing to tone isn't entirely without merit.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
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Post by DrKev on Apr 5, 2024 9:49:15 GMT -5
A problem with this kind of question is that if we know what we are listening to, our brain kicks in and all the info and myth we have ever heard of comes bubbling up and clouds our judgement. This is confirmation bias - even if there is no difference at all our brain can 'hear' differences that confirm our prior expectations (sometimes called expectation bias). Nobody, but nobody, is immune to this. And the smaller the differences the more important this bias becomes.
The only practical way of answering the questions is if you can identify a difference when blindfold.
For bridge pins I wouldn't expect any difference. But even if I think I don't hear a difference, unless I was blindfold I wouldn't put much credence on it. Because confirmation bias works both ways - our brain will ignore differences it doesn't think should exist too!
I like the odd-one-out test; listen to three things in a randomized order, two are the same, one is different, you have to correctly identify the different one. Remember that even if there is no difference, or if we don't even listen, there is still a 1 in 3 chance of identifying the odd one by blind luck for each test, so multiple tests are recommended. If you do it 3 times and correctly identify the odd one out every time, there is a 1 in 27 (1/3 x 1/3 x 1/3) chance that there is no difference but you chose the right one three times by luck alone. I think that's acceptably small odds to say with some degree of confidence that there is a difference. But if I only got 2 out 3 right, I would run more tests!
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 5, 2024 16:32:46 GMT -5
So many variables in assessing such things too. Perceived differences could vary based on how the instrument responds to attack, certain notes and chords, etc. I generally leave such assertions unchallenged because in my mind there is a point when over analysis of art, music, creativity starts edging to ones and zeros and losing the color in between. My personal observation of the 3 different materials of pins was different to a small degree, likely driven by expectation bias and would possibly fail a blindfold test. But in the end if a player subscribes to something unsubstantiated then it's likely to make him/her happy, and that puts them in a better place for the creative process.
And spending more money😁
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
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Post by DrKev on Apr 6, 2024 10:41:20 GMT -5
But in the end if a player subscribes to something unsubstantiated then it's likely to make him/her happy, and that puts them in a better place for the creative process. And spending more money😁 True. A happy musician is a better musician (except perhaps financially, as we all know!) If asked "which bridge pins should I buy?" my response will be "I don't believe there is any tonal difference, so buy the ones that will make you happiest. For me that means the ones that will look nicest". |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 6, 2024 11:00:28 GMT -5
DrKev is absolutely right. I will say that brass pins do change the tone beyond the confirmation bias thing though. The nice thing about working on guitars like I do is not only am I getting my hands on thousands of guitars, but I'm also emotionally disconnected from it. If I come up with a pickup design and it takes me 6 months to get a prototype, I will talk myself into hearing what I want to hear 6 months later. At the shop, I'm just playing what comes in or whatever modification a customer brings me and I have no emotional stake in it. It isn't quite a blind taste test at that point, but it is darn close. I never got excited about the mod, I didn't read pages and pages of message board people saying how wonderful it is, I didn't stare at my favorite artist playing it on youtube, I didn't lie awake at night dreaming what an amazing player I'd be if I had it... you get the idea. You eventually get vulcan brain.
It really is that development/anticipation phase that kills the ability to listen. It happens with manufacturers ALL THE TIME. A couple months ago, owner of the store is talking to a rep for company X. Owner calls me over "hey, tell him what you were telling me about the guitars!"... I was really embarrassed because I was badmouthing the new designs, and explaining why they really don't sound that good. I sheepishly tell the rep, and his response was something like "yeah, I know..." I was shocked to find out it didn't turn into a confrontation. Lots of good-on-paper ideas that get automatically green-lighted through prototype phase because people are listening for certain things they want to hear. A new model might have a really deep bass response, but the highs can be weak and very thin mids and it is a useless instrument, but the change they wanted was to get more bass response and they got it, so it is marked a success.
Similarly, I get people who might spend years dreaming up a perfect guitar and then finally buy Warmoth/other parts to make it happen. It can often be a trainwreck, and makes me think of the early Simpsons episode where Homer designs a car. I think the core people here have done enough experimenting over the years that they've settled in and have some better ears than most of my customers, though.
Back to the pins, the other issue would be separating MATERIAL from MASS. Mass making a difference makes sense. One major builder/instructor I talked to would weigh acoustic bridges when people wanted to come up with new designs/shapes, and felt there was a sweet spot. The pins add to the mass of the bridge, so it stands to reason it will have an impact there. As mentioned before, pretty much every after market boo-teek pin set is oversized, so it is entirely possible (though I would stop before asserting) that the differences are purely due to increased mass, and not from ditching "cheap" plastic in favorite of fancy organic materials. I wouldn't go quite that far because when I hear the brass pins I hear a bit of the "zing" we're all used to when brass hardware is added to a guitar, and that part needs to be explained.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 6, 2024 11:06:51 GMT -5
So many variables in assessing such things too. Perceived differences could vary based on how the instrument responds to attack, certain notes and chords, etc. I generally leave such assertions unchallenged because in my mind there is a point when over analysis of art, music, creativity starts edging to ones and zeros and losing the color in between. My personal observation of the 3 different materials of pins was different to a small degree, likely driven by expectation bias and would possibly fail a blindfold test. But in the end if a player subscribes to something unsubstantiated then it's likely to make him/her happy, and that puts them in a better place for the creative process. And spending more money😁 Right, back when I was tinkering with pickup designs I would get annoyed that many self appointed experts wanted these digital recordings/metrics to decide if a factor made a difference or not... and that's fine, but every empirical measure has a one-dimensional snapshot. The sound of an instrument exists across many frequencies, and across time, and small changes in envelope can be very noticeable to human ears which are evolved for precise timbre and inflection for our language abilities, but very hard to measure with a computer... or at least in a pre-AI computing time, it was. The snobs would criticize "magic ears" people, but then you'd get a guy like Jason Lollar who would just say "I dunno, I just plug into my favorite tube amp and listen" and it worked great for him. Modeling technology is often a good example of this. If I hear someone else play through a modeling amp I'll feel like it really nails a tone... but when I play through it, uncanny valley. The feedback we get through our hands to our ears is really weird. It can lie to us, or it can tell us something we haven't learned how to measure objectively. |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 6, 2024 13:22:53 GMT -5
I wonder why some folks like Jim Lill go out of their way to blow up Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, lol. I mean I get the scientific method employed (and Jim Lill seems like a genuinely nice guy), but it just leaves me wondering about the motive. Is it a PSA to musicians to curtail their frivilous spending habits (which impacts retailers)? And to your point Funky, any YouTube demonstration comparing a pricey instrument or amp to a cardboard contraption is going to be one dimensional. Whether it is such demonstrations, AI creations of "art", whatever, the encroachment of science into art makes me uncomfortable. The level of snark some people exhibit in other forum discussions when it comes to tone woods, finishes, etc. seems unnecessarily contemptuous. Again, for me it's a matter of live and let live and how people choose to navigate through the creative process. Most of us have preferences for the nut width of our necks and seem to be able to "feel" minute fractions. I recently adjusted the heel trussrod on a neck and something felt a bit off. All measured right but then after a long look I suspected a not so obvious neck alignment, loosened the neck and did the old shift and retighten. The amount I moved it was miniscule, but all seemed right afterward. If we can sense these tiny little differences in feel without necessarily being able to articulate them, then maybe the same applies to our perception of sound.
But I digress. I like purdy bridge pins. 😁
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 6, 2024 14:58:16 GMT -5
It has been on gear forums since the '90s. If you've ever seen the "ackchyually" meme, it is something like that. People want to feel clever by poking a hole in someone's enthusiasm. I think you're right when you say "contemptuous".
The classic argument that will never die is that nothing on an electric guitar makes any difference except pickups, because the pickups sense the strings and not any wood. This is demonstrably false, otherwise many guitars with identical pickups would be indistinguishable in tone, and we know they aren't. That isn't scientific because we absolutely know a set of PAFs installed into a coffee table will not sound like a '59 Les Paul, and any number of tests would prove it.
Most of the errors in thinking are in the WHY rather than the WHAT. I think the bad pseudoscience in the "why" makes people think the "what" is imagined, when the "what" might be perfectly valid.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 6, 2024 15:15:37 GMT -5
In regards to bridge pins, I will say the pretty snakewoods and probably all wood ones are prone to a little shredding and splintering, particularly along the bottoms and slots. So from a functional standpoint, harder materials are probably a better option.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Apr 6, 2024 15:35:37 GMT -5
I wonder why some folks like Jim Lill go out of their way to blow up Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, lol. I mean I get the scientific method employed (and Jim Lill seems like a genuinely nice guy), but it just leaves me wondering about the motive. *edit* ...The amount I moved it was miniscule, but all seemed right afterward. If we can sense these tiny little differences in feel without necessarily being able to articulate them, then maybe the same applies to our perception of sound. Jim Lill's motive is to make entertaining videos that lots of people watch and make him some money. And he did, and his success is deserved. A lot of time and effort went into the production of those videos. As a scientist, IMHO his scientific method and presentation of it is lacking, but I his goal is not scientific rigor and he's under no obligation to make me happy. And I get what you are saying about perception. There is no doubt in my mind that recordings cannot adequately capture the differences in sound of different pickups that we hear/sense/feel. Same with different types of strings. But that's not to say that our perceptions are always to be relied on. As either Richard Feynman or Carl Sagan (or both) said, "take great care not to fool anyone, and remember that the easiest person to fool is yourself." BUT there is also a ton of stuff in this industry that is 100% unscientific BS that relies on confirmation bias for people to "perceive" what the marketing says. And there is no doubt in my mind that much of it is absolutely unethical and immoral. Why? Because it requires lying to the public to get their cash. Three prime examples that come to mind: Monster Cable's "time correct windings", Dean Markley's cryogenically treated instrument cables, and Gibson's fake Bumblebee capacitors. Those to my mind are such egregious examples of lying to the customer, requires such disrespect of the customer to go ahead with, that it makes my blood boil. And I don't think it's not good enough to shrug and say "buyer beware" because we cannot expect everyone to have the required graduate-level scientific knowledge to spot a lot of the BS. I also think it only serves unethical business owners to put the onus on the consumer to protect themselves. So we have to educate as much as is possible. If Jim Lill makes people think and question some of the old wive's tales and myth and superstition around instruments, I think that's a good thing and I applaud him for it. |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 6, 2024 16:07:31 GMT -5
Yeah, no disrespect to Jim Lill, I've watched many of his presentations, didn't categorically dismiss any of it and I'll say again, he seems like a nice guy and his delivery is entertaining.
There are times when I read product descriptions and can smell the waft of manure, no doubt. Even the "nitrocellulose finish that let's the wood breathe" thing makes me grin a little. I like nitro just because I associate it vintage instruments and like it cosmetically. But I have poly finished instruments that sound great, too. The bumblebee caps are a tricky way to navigate around shysterism, imo. If they're cosmetically similar to the originals then to a guitar nerd who likes getting under the hood that may be enough justification for them to buy them. But to claim an electronic component is vintage accurate because it looks like an original is more than a bit deceptive. Not to mention the actual contribution of capacitors of equal value having any discernable difference.
I suppose the more one knows about the science behind things the more they're inclined to call out the bs.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 6, 2024 16:21:59 GMT -5
Oh, the nitro is a perfect example of the "why" vs "what". The "lets the wood breathe" thing is so silly that people will disregard the notion immediately, and assume perceived differences are imaginary. The problem is that what a person hears might be valid, but their explanation for it is ridiculous. In the case of nitro, the difference is likely due to the mass of the finish and because lacquer is lighter/thinner. The wood doesn't need to breathe - it's days of photosynthesis are long over. It can still have a difference in tone, though.
The best test for the finish on a solid body question would be to take a thick finish guitar you know well and strip the finish and compare before and after. I'm yet to do this, but I've heard of some people who have done it and reported a difference. The closest I came is having a customer with several Carvins; at the time they were available with either a crazy thick poly or a tung oil finish, and the tung oil ones definitely sounded more lively. Maybe it is a mass thing, maybe it is a dampening thing, maybe it is a reflective thing... who knows. Maybe the two oil guitars he had were noticeably different than the three poly guitars by total coincidence.
You see similar things in health/nutrition... gym bros will figure something out long before the scientists and come up with really dumb ("bro science") explanations, but will often be vindicated later on that whatever they figured out earlier was correct... just not in ways they understood.
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Post by rickyguitar on Apr 6, 2024 16:37:15 GMT -5
Over the years I have tried to focus on what works for me, that being a combination of sound and feel. The years gave not been kind to my hearing and I know I can't really trust it so it has become "what used to work". My tactile acuity is in better shape so I am more trusting of it.
A couple years ago I took my acoustic in for a set up at a somewhat high end shop, owner and 2 apprentices. The apprentice I talked to, who did the set up liked talking more than listening. When I said "I like low action and I don't play hard so it works for me" he didn't listen. He gave me an unacceptable setup. I paid for it and said it was wrong but I will try it out. A week later I took back and the owner asked what was wrong, I told him, he said ok I will do it. When I picked it up he said it us as low as it can go. It was magnificent. The strings I like, on the neck I know. I played a bit and he seemed kinda surprised at how well it worked for me. Still primo. It may be totally subjective but every time I pick it up I am wowed.
Oh. And experimenting is ok too. Tried a brass nut on an LP. Hated it. Went to bone older and wiser.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
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Post by sirWheat on Apr 7, 2024 6:29:58 GMT -5
Good points, all.
With regard to pins, it is the mass that makes the biggest difference, which would explain why the brass ones stick out. Good makers have a weight range for their bridges, 28 grams was the target for someone I talked to once.
When I took the Buzz Feiten class I needed an acoustic to perform the operation on. The only one I had at the time was my Blueridge BG-160. The instructor looked at it and said that there wasn't enough saddle showing, I.E., it would need a neck re-set in order to "Feitenize" it without a lot of annoyance. Said instructor also told me that those cheap, Chinese made guitars always had the neck set in with epoxy, making a re-set virtually impossible (he was wrong on both points; that guitar is actually quite well made, not "cheap" at all and is assembled in the same manner as the J-45 that it's a copy of). Well, given that I didn't know any better at the time, my only choice was to shave the bridge, which I did. I won't say that it ruined the guitar, it didn't, but it did change it quite noticeably. It lost some robustness overall and I'd say it lost some of its dynamic range; if you really dig in, trying to play really loud, it just farts out at a certain point, similarly to how acoustic pickup systems do. It's really a moot point as there's no need to hit the thing that hard really. I figured that the thing would need a neck set at some point and I'd make a new bridge at the same time and see what happens, but it's a stalwart; it's the one that's always laying around wherever I played it last, year round, and it refuses to show any negative effects.
Anyway, mass at the bridge area is a huge consideration.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 7, 2024 8:16:19 GMT -5
Speaking of acoustic neck resets, I've read elsewhere that if you put a 24" straight edge down the length of the fretboard between the G and D string, the top of the straight edge should just reach the top of the bridge. If it falls short then it's time for a reset. That sound correct?
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
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Post by sirWheat on Apr 7, 2024 15:26:26 GMT -5
Exactly. Well, that's where you start when you build it. Over time the string tension will pull the bridge up; you can lower the saddle to fix the action, which will often last for many years. Once you have too little saddle left to lower, and/or the shallower break angle is problematic, then it's time for a reset.
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Post by rickyguitar on Apr 8, 2024 10:37:51 GMT -5
I had a 12 string that had the bridge pulling up and the top bellying up (this was after about 15 years). Repair guy put an incandescent light inside for heat to separate the bridge, then put weight on the top to force it back into shape. Reset the bridge and all was good.
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Post by LTB on Apr 8, 2024 18:19:54 GMT -5
On a Martin I had I put fossilized Mammoth Tusq pins and saddle on it which made a big difference in tone. On my Yamaha ARE-1 I put just the Mammoth pins in which did make a difference. They are pricy though. Unlike the Martin they didn’t have a pre-made saddle for the Yamaha and I don’t have the ability to make one.
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