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P A system
Mar 21, 2020 17:24:47 GMT -5
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 21, 2020 17:24:47 GMT -5
Back in the day I gigged with 4 15s with horns on the mains. Crossover allowed stereo bi amp or mono tri amp. Used Crown and BGW amps. Monitors were 1 12s or 1 15 with passive crossovers with Crown amps.
It has been awhile. I now have an 8 channel powered peavey mixer with 2 1 12s for mains and 2 1 12s for monitors. Big diff. But I dont play big rooms with big crowds anymore but the real downside is that since I am unable to mix a band like I used to it is way too easy to end up with High school dance kind of sound.
That leaves me thinking if I had a 16 channel mixer, power, and the 21st century equivalent of LaScala's or something similar I could use the existing system for monitors and have a happening live mix.
Am I thinking too old school, is there a better newer approach, of better newer gear?
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mikem
Wholenote
Musician soundman musician soundman
Posts: 231
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Post by mikem on Mar 24, 2020 5:54:19 GMT -5
FWIW: In my GB (general business; clubs, weddings, corp) band gigging days I started out with an 8 channel powered mixer (Crate PCM8DP)and a pair of Bose 402 speakers.
As my band's needs changed I added a power amp and Bose 802's (plus 802C processor) for my mains and used the 402's as monitors.
The rig was easy to deploy, always sounded good, and never failed.
As time went on I decided to "upgrade" to a separate mixer/power amps/processors..... It did sound a bit better (digi efx as opposed to spring verb, etc.) but setting up / breaking down the rig became way more complicated.
(btw: I now have a small/local sound company with a load of gear...)
You did not mention the model of Peavey mixer, maybe upgrading your powered mixer to a Yorkville m1610 or m810 (both have two power amps plus digital efx) would be in order.
Everyone (I mean everyone) seems to be going the active/powered speaker route these days but I have always felt that a good passive system sounds just as good and is way easier to deploy (running power plus signal to active cabs creates more of a tripping hazard).
Bells'n whistle (the latest and greatest gear) may make you sound slightly better but in the whole scheme of things, is it worth all of the extra set up / break down time.
FWIW: I have several passive rigs that sound killer, including long-throw speakers/racks of Itechs for local festivals.....
...my favorite though is my Yorkville m810 mixer with Yorkville e10 passive cabs; small, light, and it kick a**, plenty for small club/pub work.
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Post by Duke on Mar 24, 2020 9:53:36 GMT -5
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Post by Laker on Mar 24, 2020 10:47:27 GMT -5
A couple of my friends use the Bose L1 system and really like it. One is a four piece blues group with harp, guitar, bass and drums with the L1 doing a very good job for them.
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P A system
Mar 24, 2020 20:31:13 GMT -5
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 24, 2020 20:31:13 GMT -5
I would like to be able to mic up a 4 or 5 piece for outdoor gigs if need be. Not real loud but audible. I have 6 channel peavey 200 watts per channel at 4 ohms as I recall.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Mar 24, 2020 21:44:22 GMT -5
If you're putting drums, bass, and keys through the PA (along with vocals) you need multiple 15s or a pair of 12s and subs. If you're just doing vocals and perhaps acoustic guitars in the PA, a pair of 12s and 500 watts per side will cover a lot of ground. If you need monitors, a separate power amp is necessary; if you run it in stereo, you can send two monitor mixes to the stage (depending on what the players want in their wedges). I have a bunch of PA gear including a 24-channel Mackey board, but the unit that gets used the most is a Carvin XP-1000L powered mixer (below). All I add to it is a pair of Peavey PR12s and stands, four monitors, three or four mics and stands, a Crown 1000 power amp for the monitors, and a 50' 8-chan snake. This is a super compact rig and has served me well for 15 years. Sadly, Carvin is out of business. But find one of these 2nd hand, or a comparable Yamaha.  |
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Fat Tony
Quarternote
Posts: 20
Formerly Known As: Tony Wright
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Post by Fat Tony on Mar 25, 2020 1:21:45 GMT -5
If you are starting from scratch, meaning you don't have any PA gear, I opted for a passive mixer and powered speakers. The issue is the size of audience and venue that you have to "fill". A powered mixer has a finite size venue it can adequately cover....they have a pair of internal power amps that can typically support up to two 8 Ohm mains and two 8 Ohm monitors.
With a passive mixer, each speaker has its own power amp and typically will be capable of expansion with ease.
I opted for "smaller is better". I have Yamaha DBX powered speaker cabinets. I own five of the DBR10. I also own a pair of larger JBL powered speakers (PRX625) and a smaller pair of JBL powered speakers (PRX612m). Since my band plays smaller venues (200 and less, more often 125 or smaller). Since Mark plays an acoustic electric guitar, he and I both go direct into the PA. I don't take a bass amp to the smaller events as 2 of the DBR10 carries 3 vocals, one A/E guitar and bass with no problem...think larger coffee shops or backyard parties or house parties (inside someone's home). IF I was going to do "sound for hire" I have a larger passive mixer and I could take a pair of JBL cabinets that fit the need (PRX625 or PRX612) for mains and I would take 3 of the Yamaha DBR10 (or 4 of the DBR10 if someone is sitting in with us).
I am comfortable with the simplicity of the Mackie ProFX series passive mixers. I prefer the original and the V.2 of the ProFX, but that is because I like the graphic EQ feature. I would note that Mackie like most other sound system manufacturers cannot count "channels" like the consumers count channels. For me, one fader is one channel regardless of how many inputs into that single volume control. So one XLR with two 1/4 inputs is NOT 3 channels. For bar band gigs, I take the ProFX16 which has only 12 faders...it has everything I might need for your typical bar band: 3 vocal mics, mic 1 or 2 guitar amps, perhaps a keyboard, bass probably has a large enough bass rig to carry the venue (I know I do for bar gigs). That is only six input channels. That still gives me enough channels for micing the drum kit. Personally, I would use a small drum mic set up: Kick, one mic shared for hats and snare, a second mic shared for both mounted toms and one for floor tom. (4 drum mics). That leaves you a channel for break music if you are playing a private party where there is no house juke box....and you have a "floater" mic in case you need a harmonica or djembe or sax or another guitar or singer.
There are plenty of powered speakers that would serve you quite well:
JBL EON-600 series, or Mackie Thump series, Alto TS300 series are all powered cabinets and with a passive mixer such as I described should be about as reasonable as a powered mixer and similar quality passive speakers.
Powered mixers that should handle about anything you NEED should be reasonably close in total cost. If you NEED multiple monitor mixes, you automatically get hit for more internal power amps, thus more $$$. Powered mixers cost more than most passive mixers. AND, powered speakers will cost more than passive speakers. Do your own math and keep in mind the features you really need.
The out of production Yamaha EMX5000-20 was a great powered mixer. (current models are the EMX5014 or EMX5016.) I ran a lot of "sound for hire" for larger bands with the EMX5000-20. I simply used the push button that assigned the two internal 500 Watt power amps to MONITOR amps thus I could have two monitor mixes for vocals AND use power amps to drive the mains and subs to fit the venue size. I believe the out of production Carvin had most of the same features and would serve you well if you could find one on the used market. Yorkville has a couple of killer mixers...but no stocking supplier in Oklahoma back in those days. (2001-2012)
At 70yrs old, I prefer lighter weight equipment. With digital power amps and neodymium speakers, the weight of speakers and especially powered speakers has lost "a lot of weight". The same is true of powered mixers vs current passive mixers.
There is a place in the market for both powered mixers with passive speakers AND passive mixers with powered speakers.
Pick what works for your needs. Me? Lightweight and louder works better for my money and my hips and back.
EDIT TO ADD: Peego's Carvin is a very decent powered mixer...I looked up the specifications and discovered it has 3 internal power amps, one for monitors and two for stereo mains....all rated at 400 Watts at 4 Ohms. Nice mixer. I have owned (and currently own) several Carvin products....ain't nuttin wrong with them. |
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mikem
Wholenote
Musician soundman musician soundman
Posts: 231
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Post by mikem on Mar 25, 2020 9:03:23 GMT -5
If you're putting drums, bass, and keys through the PA (along with vocals) you need multiple 15s or a pair of 12s and subs. If you're just doing vocals and perhaps acoustic guitars in the PA, a pair of 12s and 500 watts per side will cover a lot of ground. If you need monitors, a separate power amp is necessary; if you run it in stereo, you can send two monitor mixes to the stage (depending on what the players want in their wedges). I have a bunch of PA gear including a 24-channel Mackey board, but the unit that gets used the most is a Carvin XP-1000L powered mixer (below). All I add to it is a pair of Peavey PR12s and stands, four monitors, three or four mics and stands, a Crown 1000 power amp for the monitors, and a 50' 8-chan snake. This is a super compact rig and has served me well for 15 years. Sadly, Carvin is out of business. But find one of these 2nd hand, or a comparable Yamaha. On the Carvin XP1000L I really like jack for the foot switch (located on the bottom right of the pic) to mute the efx in between songs.... The Yorkville m810 and m1610 have the same feature.... |
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P A system
Mar 25, 2020 16:11:59 GMT -5
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 25, 2020 16:11:59 GMT -5
I appreciate all the responses. I am not starting from scratch, the small system mentioned in the original post would become monitors capable of 2 mixes with 100 watts going into each of 4 112 plus tweet cabinets.
The issue then is the mains. 2 cabinets each 115 at 500 watts each would be the minimum. A powered mixer that would eliminate racks of processors and amps would be good. The trade off us no sound mind mixing from out front. Not crazy about powered speakers because of the cables.
I do not want the time consuming set up issues of the past but I do want a bigger sound.
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Post by tahitijack on Mar 28, 2020 10:35:13 GMT -5
We are an acoustic trio using two mics, and two guitars but maybe adding a bass. After using house systems I realized we need to control our sound to avoid the inconsistencies of just OK to awful. So, I took a deep breath and purchased a Bose L1 Model 2, B2 bass module and the T8S tonematch (8 channels). Wow what an impressive change. Oddly we got even more complements on how good we sound. Our loyal followers are other musicians and singers, so I think I made the right choice. Best part is set up and take down is very easy and fast. Love the simplicity and the volume is uniform from all areas of the room.
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 30, 2020 2:16:57 GMT -5
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Post by k9bigdog on Apr 2, 2020 7:37:36 GMT -5
That Yamaha system is pretty much bulletproof. I have a pair of the S115V mains that are about 15 or 16 years old and even though they don't look so great after so many years of gigs and being manhandled into the back of my truck they still work and sound just fine. I also have a whole bunch of the Yamaha BR12M monitors that I've collected over the years. Not built as tough as the Club (S-series) speakers but they get the job done and a reasonably lightweight. I started out with the EMX5000-12 mixer and used it until it started having issues. I still have it down in the basement and one of these days I'd like to find someone to repair it. I upgraded to the Yamaha EMX5016c and it has been very solid for me. The only real knock on the Yamaha powered mixers is that there is no way to get the monitor signal to the built-in EQ. In smaller venues when you split the power amps to use one side for mains and the other to monitors it can be tricky if not impossible to wring out feedback from the monitors. It's a shame that Yamaha has never addressed this well-known issue/complaint. Most times now I just bring separate amp and eq to run the monitors. I would prefer to run the external amp for the mains, but even with the EMX set to Aux1/Aux2 (sending the amps to the "monitor" mix exclusively) the Aux signals still can't be routed to the on-board eq. Very frustrating flaw in an otherwise great piece of equipment.
I just bought a digital mixer and a pair of powered mains and trying very hard to lead my guys towards in-ear monitors. I'm probably going to pick up some powered 12's for use as monitors at some point but once everyone gets the in-ear setup I'll use the 12's for smaller venues and DJ'ing. Probably will sell the old passive cabinets and the EMX mixer or maybe use it as a rental.
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