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Post by pcalu on Apr 18, 2020 21:43:28 GMT -5
Call me lazy... Years ago tossed the multi meter and just bias my amps by ear.
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Post by LTB on Apr 18, 2020 21:46:11 GMT -5
Call me lazy... Years ago tossed the multi meter and just bias my amps by ear.
Yes, you can do that but if you go too far you will cause earlier tube failure. I use Digital Voltmeter, Bias Probe and ears. That way I find the best sound within limits of the tube.
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 19, 2020 5:11:31 GMT -5
I was an electronic engineer, so do my own tech work, and also for friends / acquaintances. Generally I’ll fit 1 ohm resistors to power tube cathodes to sense their current. That can be too much of a PITA with pcb mounted sockets, in which case I use the OT primary winding resistance method (removing the phase splitter tube to prevent oscillation). But that method’s not ideal with 4 tube amps; if concerned I’ll swap tubes around to attempt to assess how well matched they are. With fixed bias amps, set idle current to 30 to 35mA per EL34 or 6L6GC, 18-20mA per EL84 or 6V6. Multiply current by HT voltage to verify that the resulting idle dissipation is reasonable, below 18W or 8.5W. For cathode bias, getting idle dissipation down to the limiting value is usually the issue; whilst bearing in mind that the absolute limit will be higher than the design max limit, which will in turn be higher than the design centre limit. If it does need lowering, then that’s often due to the HT voltage being excessive, so better to reduce that (eg with lossier rectifier or sag resistor) than tinker with the bias resistor value.
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Post by pcalu on Apr 19, 2020 7:49:50 GMT -5
I was an electronic engineer, so do my own tech work, and also for friends / acquaintances. Generally I’ll fit 1 ohm resistors to power tube cathodes to sense their current. That can be too much of a PITA with pcb mounted sockets, in which case I use the OT primary winding resistance method (removing the phase splitter tube to prevent oscillation). But that method’s not ideal with 4 tube amps; if concerned I’ll swap tubes around to attempt to assess how well matched they are. With fixed bias amps, set idle current to 30 to 35mA per EL34 or 6L6GC, 18-20mA per EL84 or 6V6. Multiply current by HT voltage to verify that the resulting idle dissipation is reasonable, below 18W or 8.5W. For cathode bias, getting idle dissipation down to the limiting value is usually the issue; whilst bearing in mind that the absolute limit will be higher than the design max limit, which will in turn be higher than the design centre limit. If it does need lowering, then that’s often due to the HT voltage being excessive, so better to reduce that (eg with lossier rectifier or sag resistor) than tinker with the bias resistor value. Dang,, I wish you were my next door neighbhor. I'd be mowing your lawn and shoveling your driveway, putting your garbage cans back etc .. all the while "hey neighbhor, I got this amp... what do you think going on? lol ... You'ed be.. "Oh God... Not this guy again, Honey, tell himm I not home, I'm sick ...anything~"
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DrKev
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It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Apr 19, 2020 9:01:28 GMT -5
Multi-meter here. I gave up one the ear thing years ago because, simply, in A-B'd recordings, my amp (EL84s) had to idle at less than 55% to make any difference in tone. So, 60 - 65% maximses tube life with no tonal trade off. I just don't see any reason to run hotter than that.
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Bopper
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Motor City USA
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Age: 72
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Post by Bopper on Apr 19, 2020 11:04:06 GMT -5
One vote for techs here.
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 19, 2020 11:09:02 GMT -5
Call me lazy... Years ago tossed the multi meter and just bias my amps by ear.
Haha, but to be fair, if you know your amps REALLY well, and you’re getting reasonable tube life, you’re probably not far off.
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Post by pcalu on Apr 20, 2020 18:36:46 GMT -5
Call me lazy... Years ago tossed the multi meter and just bias my amps by ear.
Haha, but to be fair, if you know your amps REALLY well, and you’re getting reasonable tube life, you’re probably not far off. True... I've played the same amps for years.
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Post by LTB on Apr 20, 2020 21:42:46 GMT -5
I was an electronic engineer, so do my own tech work, and also for friends / acquaintances. Generally I’ll fit 1 ohm resistors to power tube cathodes to sense their current. That can be too much of a PITA with pcb mounted sockets, in which case I use the OT primary winding resistance method (removing the phase splitter tube to prevent oscillation). But that method’s not ideal with 4 tube amps; if concerned I’ll swap tubes around to attempt to assess how well matched they are. With fixed bias amps, set idle current to 30 to 35mA per EL34 or 6L6GC, 18-20mA per EL84 or 6V6. Multiply current by HT voltage to verify that the resulting idle dissipation is reasonable, below 18W or 8.5W. For cathode bias, getting idle dissipation down to the limiting value is usually the issue; whilst bearing in mind that the absolute limit will be higher than the design max limit, which will in turn be higher than the design centre limit. If it does need lowering, then that’s often due to the HT voltage being excessive, so better to reduce that (eg with lossier rectifier or sag resistor) than tinker with the bias resistor value. Electronic Engineer, Awesome. I knew you were good but didn't know about the engineer aspect of your knowledge. Years ago I was not wanting to pay for what they wanted for even a simple bias probe so I bought, sockets, 0.1 % 1 ohm resistors and made my own. If I had actually owned a tube amp instead of just working on them I would have incorporated the resistors and test jacks or if it was a Quad power tube setup I would just use one set of Jacks and a rotary switch to switch between all 4 tubes .
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Post by SoK66 on Apr 21, 2020 18:06:00 GMT -5
About 13 years Iago I bought a "Compu-Bias" probe that works great. Unfortunately the dude went belly up so if it craps out I'll have to get a new one from another vendor.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 22, 2020 2:28:41 GMT -5
I built a twin bias probe with meters in a little cabinet and it works great for my 6V6 amps.
For the EL84 amps I have a Weber Bias probe that plugs right in.
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Post by K4 on Apr 22, 2020 11:14:32 GMT -5
I do the ear thing. I start at the bottom and turn it up till it sounds good. I get decent tube life.
Now if I could get more than a few hours out of a set of strings...
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Post by LTB on Apr 22, 2020 22:48:53 GMT -5
Now if I could get more than a few hours out of a set of strings... You apparently have very acidic skin chemistry. Try cleaning your hands with Hand Sanizer each time before you play and maybe at the break and then wipe your strings down when through. If that doesn't help then I don't have a clue.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 24, 2020 17:56:51 GMT -5
I google "how to bias a ____ " and get pretty decent explanations. I'm not good enough with amps to stare at the circuit and know where to put my probes, but every amp I've tried to bias myself has had bias points somewhere on the board. Doing that much is well within my reach. I go a bit on the hot side because I usually play with lower, cleaner volumes. It gains some overtones, but I don't push the amp too hard so I assume (?) that negates a lot of shorter tube life trade off.
Adjusting bias is addictive. I've heard some people say that new amps are routinely biased cold in order to keep down customer complaints on dead tubes early in the amp's life, and while I can't confirm it, it seems plausible.
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RogerD
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Fraternity, Dedication, & Passion
Posts: 181
Formerly Known As: Roger D
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Post by RogerD on Apr 24, 2020 21:57:42 GMT -5
Some of you might remember a magazine called Guitar Shop from many years ago. Amp builder, George Alessandro, wrote an interesting article about biasing amps and balanced (Matched) tubes. At that time Mr. Alessandro offered a bias meter, which had dual meters, where you would plug your tubes into the sockets which are plugged into the amps sockets. I contacted him and ordered one which I have used successfully ever since. On the front of the enclosure is a chart that provides the reference values for the most common octal-type tubes utilized in amplifiers. It's quite a useful tool.
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Post by LTB on Apr 24, 2020 23:23:04 GMT -5
Some of you might remember a magazine called Guitar Shop from many years ago. Amp builder, George Alessandro, wrote an interesting article about biasing amps and balanced (Matched) tubes. At that time Mr. Alessandro offered a bias meter, which had dual meters, where you would plug your tubes into the sockets which are plugged into the amps sockets. I contacted him and ordered one which I have used successfully ever since. On the front of the enclosure is a chart that provides the reference values for the most common octal-type tubes utilized in amplifiers. It's quite a useful tool. Yes, I wanted one back in the early 2000's when I was repairing amps. They looked very nice but way above what I was willing to spend at the time.
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RogerD
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Fraternity, Dedication, & Passion
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Formerly Known As: Roger D
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Post by RogerD on Apr 25, 2020 10:52:26 GMT -5
LTB; I believe that it was priced at about $90.00. During our telephone call I remember George complaining that he thought that the price was too low. ibb.co/6mHkgsd
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Apr 26, 2020 6:41:54 GMT -5
I google "how to bias a ____ " and get pretty decent explanations The downside of that is that it also turns up many sites where the horrendously dangerous 'transformer shunt' plate current measurement method is suggested, with some guys putting forward the hypothesis that it's the most accurate. My view is that it's a recklessly hazardous method for anyone to use, and to put it forward as being suitable for non techs is, frankly, extremely regrettable.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on May 8, 2020 18:58:44 GMT -5
I use bias rite bias probe that has 4 sockets so I can do up to 4 tubes at once0 Fenders with 6L6's I go 65% at 36ma. Marshals with EL34's I go 33ma 65% alos. Sounds good and can get 60 four hour cranked gigs out of my tubes
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Post by LTB on May 9, 2020 0:07:01 GMT -5
I use bias rite bias probe that has 4 sockets so I can do up to 4 tubes at once0 Fenders with 6L6's I go 65% at 36ma. Marshals with EL34's I go 33ma 65% alos. Sounds good and can get 60 four hour cranked gigs out of my tubes Most I might go on 6L6 Fenders. Haven't worked on a Marshall
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twangmeister
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Age: 72 and fading fast.....
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Post by twangmeister on Aug 11, 2020 18:49:02 GMT -5
I do the ear thing. I start at the bottom and turn it up till it sounds good. I get decent tube life. Now if I could get more than a few hours out of a set of strings... That was my method, too.
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Aug 12, 2020 7:22:35 GMT -5
I use bias rite bias probe that has 4 sockets so I can do up to 4 tubes at once0 Fenders with 6L6's I go 65% at 36ma. Marshals with EL34's I go 33ma 65% alos. Sounds good and can get 60 four hour cranked gigs out of my tubes In reality, the actual plate dissipation limit of EL34 and (true) 6L6GC is probably virtually identical. The 25W of the former is under the 'design centre' rating system, the 30W of the latter is under the 'design max' system. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. The design max system expects equipment designers to apply a derating factor to the tube when they devise a suitable operating pint for it; whereas the design centre system already has that derating factor included. If the typical derating factor of 0.86 is applied to the 30W of the 6L6GC, an estimated design centre rating of 26W can be applied to it. Here's RCA AN-174, which introduces the design max system, compares it to the design centre system and advises designers how to use it www.one-electron.com/Archives/RCA/RCA-AppNotes/RCA%201958%20AN-174%20Design-Maximum%20System%20for%20Rating%20Electron%20Tubes.pdf
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