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Post by windmill on Jul 7, 2021 17:22:50 GMT -5
Following from the "playing in all 12 keys" idea, just how good are you are tranposing tunes ?
Do you find chord sequences straightforward ?
or are melodies easier ?
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Post by ninworks on Jul 7, 2021 20:10:49 GMT -5
I consider myself pretty good at transposing. Once the chord progression's pattern is realized it's just a matter of moving it to another location. I am lucky to have been blessed with a very good musical set of ears. A melody is a melody and my ears have been trained well enough to be able to play it if I can hear it in my head. That's one of the main reasons I don't read music notation very well. Once I heard the tune I could usually play it after hearing it a couple of times. I can read charts okay. I can read music notation too I am just not good enough at it to be a sight reader.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jul 8, 2021 10:37:22 GMT -5
I use the number system in my head when I play, so moving from one key to another is always a simple matter of I, II, III, IV, etc. The only time I use a capo is to get a particular sound.
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Post by Riff Twang on Jul 9, 2021 2:26:48 GMT -5
I'm pretty good at it. I had to transpose chord progressions on the fly when doing a lot of subbing in different groups, most having no chord charts, but playing familiar tunes. The unfamiliar tunes were good for my ear training too. I did that for years.
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Post by larryguitar54 on Jul 9, 2021 21:24:22 GMT -5
Me too. I have to tune a half step down and play lead with other guys set in standard. It forced me to transpose on the fly a lot.
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Post by windmill on Aug 7, 2021 21:55:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies.
I can transpose chords ok but at the moment am struggling with single note lines.
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Post by langford on Aug 25, 2021 8:28:40 GMT -5
Depends on the song. As others have said, it's not a problem when the song is based on some variation of a standard chord progression. I can also figure thing out pretty quickly if the song doesn't have a lot of modulations. (Many thanks to the music teacher who showed my how to harmonize a scale when I was in my teens.) If the song has a complex structure, I need to work it out. It doesn't take long, but I can't do it on the fly. It also depends on how well I know the song.
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Post by rickyguitar on Aug 25, 2021 12:20:46 GMT -5
Usually not a problem. Some moves on some pieces require a bit if thought.
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Post by tahitijack on Oct 7, 2021 18:11:54 GMT -5
I'm learning to play keys/piano...but its already much easier to transpose/change the key of a song and much easier to play inversions.
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Post by larryguitar54 on Oct 7, 2021 22:21:42 GMT -5
I use the number system in my head when I play, so moving from one key to another is always a simple matter of I, II, III, IV, etc. The only time I use a capo is to get a particular sound. I think this is how I approach it too. If most songs are in a standard I IV V progression then over time you inevitably some kind of develop pattern recognition. So for example-- EAD, GCD, ADE, CFG, DAG are the root patterns probably 90% of the time. I don't have to really think about it |
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Oct 9, 2021 8:45:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I can transpose chords ok but at the moment am struggling with single note lines. Can you 'hear' a melody in your head? For instance, play an E chord and then sing Row Yer Boat a capella in the key of E. Next, bang out an A chord and then sing the tune in A. If you can do this, you can transpose in your head. It then becomes a matter of practicing it and taking it from voice to the fingers. |
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Post by hushnel on Oct 12, 2021 11:40:18 GMT -5
I can hear pretty good, but mostly I’m pattern oriented and that’s easy to move around, I am usually only playing one note at a time. I’m not a big fan of the capo particularly when I’m playing the guitar, I don’t usually have a capo, I count on my bass playing to get the root note, the changes then convert it to chords, doesn’t usually take more than the first measure or so. If it’s too complicated I’ll just use two, three or four notes and wish I was playing bass “o) the big thing is being careful to avoid the wrong ones. With bass it’s less of a problem since any note can be used in transition, just keep moving hitting the notes the guitar is using in the chords, the cool bass line presents itself quickly.
Don’t forget, I’m a Ferrel musician. The only thing I know about music is what the songs have taught me.
I was told at Victor Wooten’s bass camp that I was a good bassist. I certainly held my own in those classes filled with musicians that had a lot of education. Like all the modes, they just turn out to be basically three patterns that start and stop at a point in the pattern. Once I’ve got the root pattern then the next pattern at the most three, I have the mode nailed down, don’t know the name of it but I don’t need a name to play it. I’ve linked Anthony Wellingtons YouTube class on breaking own the modes.
That week at Victors was huge, basically every thing they told me I knew about the music, minus the name, theory and general language. I don’t read, every few years I try. I know it would make me more of an asset but I just can’t get it to stick.
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GmanNJ
Wholenote
somewhere deep in the swamps of Joisey
Posts: 315
Formerly Known As: Your Friendly Neighborhood Gman
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Post by GmanNJ on Dec 3, 2021 22:27:42 GMT -5
as a horn player, transposing is a daily thing. The Eb instruments (Bari and Alto) are 3 semitones (1.5 steps) below the concert and the Bb instruments (tenor, trumpet) are 2 semitones above (1 full step) but the trombone is in concert key. When writing horn charts it can get confusing. When doing solo horn you take the key and transpose to the horn and hope for the best  For basic chords (guitar/piano) I use OnSong which has a transpose option- so I cheat Not really transposing but fingering. I play in an Irish band on mando which is like the guitar but flipped and only 4 strings (albeit doubled up) so on songs I dont know, I watch the guitar player for the chord then transpose to the mando fingering which is waaay different. I do this on the fly and fast changes still are hard |
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Post by HenryJ on Dec 12, 2021 19:21:39 GMT -5
I can do it rather well, if I may say so. I have a gig playing acoustic guitar and leading the music on a monthly basis at nursing home worship services. We sing from hymnals published back in 1990 or thereabouts. The hymns were not really composed with guitar accompaniment in mind, and are often in keys like Ab and Eb.
These are mostly hymns I have been familiar with for, in many cases, over half a century, so I know the songs. What I have to do is distinguish the underlying chords from the passing tones, in addition to transposing the chords to guitar-friendly keys by putting a capo on the first or third fret. I can still be in the original key, in case a keyboard player should join in, which hasn't happened yet.
When my brothers and I were learning guitar, our dad would advise us by saying "When you're playing guitar, you're playing the bass," and we would reply to our dad, "No, you're playing the chords, not just the bass." We had more musical training than he had. But one thing I noticed after I took on this gig is that, having sung the bass parts to these songs in choirs ever since my voice changed about 60 years ago, I probably have a better grasp on the chords than a tenor singer might have. Which is in the spirit of what my dad was telling my brothers and me.
Now, I have played the piano longer than I have played guitar, so when I am preparing a song and get baffled, I turn around to my keyboard, play it out, analyze it, and then transpose.
Our minister to seniors, a fantastic musician himself, issued me a hymnal, into which I have taken the liberty to penciling in the chords on a few of the hymns.
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Post by windmill on Feb 19, 2024 16:59:51 GMT -5
So I am back at this problem again.
Working through an sexercise to tranpose a 16 bar single note passage into a range of other keys.
It was suggested that I write it out in the new keys but I would like to do it "ïn my head".
Has anyone have suggestions for on how to do this ?
My current approach is read the notes as positions on the scale of the underlying chord. ie the 1st, 3rd and 5th notes of the chord, and the transpose the chord into the new key and play the equivalent notes.
Is there another way of doing it ?
Thanks
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Post by ninworks on Feb 20, 2024 7:41:45 GMT -5
I am not a good sight reader at all but if I were going to explore this and learn to read better I would absolutely take the approach of doing the notes by scale degrees instead of note names. If you know what key it is in then the note names are not important. All you need to be able to do is see and recognize the intervals on the staves.
For instance, if the passage was listed as being in, let's say, G Major, and you can recognize the notes on the staves by scale position, then all you have to do is see and play those interval changes within the scale's key. Any notes that are outside the key signature will be designated as such with a "Natural" symbol next to it. Then all you have to do when that note comes along is lower or raise it by a semitone based on its intervallic position in the scale. If you see an F natural in the key of G then you just drop the 7th by a semitone. You don't have to think of it as F# changing to F natural. For me, having to think of it as F natural just creates another piece of information to have to process. I have enough trouble reading without giving my brain another thing to process that will slow me down. To do this you will have to know the key signature's of sharps or flats for all the different keys so you will know what key it's in.
For diatonic major and minor keys, as well as the modes for them, this would simplify things greatly. I can see how it could be troublesome when using keys that use more complex note relationships that don't necessarily fit into conventional key signatures such as Harmonic Minor, Harmonic Major, Melodic Minor, etc.
If you're reading an unfamiliar melody and trying to transpose it on the spot, that would be difficult for me but once the pattern of the melody is realized in my head all I have to do is move it to another location on the fretboard.
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chucksmi
Wholenote
Posts: 174
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Post by chucksmi on Feb 20, 2024 13:57:27 GMT -5
Not too bad, When you write scores for an orchestra you need to account for the different keys for the instruments. Of course, those pesky clarinets will drive you nuts.
But once you understand the Circle of Fifths everything gets very easy. Sharps for example: The key will tell you how many sharps. The first is always F, the second always C, the third is always G, and so forth regardless of what key you are in.
So key of
G: GABCDEF#
D: DEF#GABC#
A: ABC#DEF#G#
and so forth.
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ninworks nails it in the previous post.
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One you master this then you start thinking not in terms of "notes" but in terms of intervals. Once you have that nutted, it's pretty easy. You only need to know that on a major scale for example, the 3rd and 4th as well as the 7th note and upper octave notes are always a half step apart.
This is why when you look at a piano there are no black keys between the E&F or the B&C, instead of there being black keys between all the notes.
So simple, look at the Circle of fifths learn the number of sharps in each key, then remember Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle to learn their order.
Next you learn the intervals of the major scale. Then the minor scale. Then you learn chord theory and understand what makes a Maj7 or diminished or dominant chord, etc, and since you already know the intervals of the scale the creating the chord on the instrument becomes cake, as does soloing. Being able to construct chords is a requirement to work cool inversions into your playing.
Once you know the chord tones you utilize them to construct your motifs of the solo. Watch Larry Carlton or Jerry Garcia as they do this.
Then bells start going off. Like, some songs get a bit problematic the way the third degree of the scale is used in the melody. So you leave it out of the chord. Mike Campbell of The Heartbeakers and now the Dirty Knobs is a master doing this, as is The Edge of U2.
Chuck
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Post by windmill on Feb 20, 2024 17:39:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the responses As Ninworks says , its a matter of simplifying the process by reducing the numbers of steps the old noggin has work through. I've got the key signatures worked out. I have been trying to think in terms of the intervals of each chord but the suggestion of thinking in terms of scale degrees may by simpler. Thanks for the suggestion. |
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chucksmi
Wholenote
Posts: 174
Formerly Known As: Offshore Angler elsewhere
Age: I saw Jerry Live
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Post by chucksmi on Mar 5, 2024 9:15:25 GMT -5
"I have been trying to think in terms of the intervals of each chord but the suggestion of thinking in terms of scale degrees may by simpler." Intervals and scale degrees are essentially the same, but once you start thinking of scale intervals you learn how to shift them by changing the mode. Once you think in intervals modes become child's play. |
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