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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 24, 2022 9:39:40 GMT -5
Hah. I scratch my head trying to remember what is the go-to for volume and tone pots every time I dig in the bin. I'm restoring my Thinline build back to standard Tele configuration (2 single coils). Currently have a mini humbucker in the neck and a A3 Tele bridge pickup fitted with 300k pots. I find the bridge a tad bit bright so plan on going to 250k CTS pots. I have a couple all goobered up with solder that read in 225/230k range. But for the life of me can't remember what taper is preferred, or even how to identify either.
Whasayyoo?
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Post by Leftee on Mar 24, 2022 10:07:15 GMT -5
You can use either for volume.
Audio only for tone.
I just order and use audio taper pots all around.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 24, 2022 10:10:39 GMT -5
I just order and use audio taper pots all around. That's been my practice as well if I recall correctly. Reading people's opinions on linear pots is all over the map. |
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Mar 24, 2022 10:20:57 GMT -5
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Post by Leftee on Mar 24, 2022 10:21:14 GMT -5
I just order and use audio taper pots all around. That's been my practice as well if I recall correctly. Reading people's opinions on linear pots is all over the map. I seem to recall Carvin always used linear volume pots. |
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Post by Leftee on Mar 24, 2022 10:22:40 GMT -5
Well… there goes my understanding. 😂
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 24, 2022 10:30:47 GMT -5
I've read the exact opposite about our perception and application of audio/linear in volume/tone positions. I guess it's a matter of "try it and see if you like it".
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DrKev
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Post by DrKev on Mar 24, 2022 14:13:56 GMT -5
Hah. I scratch my head trying to remember what is the go-to for volume and tone pots every time I dig in the bin. I'm restoring my Thinline build back to standard Tele configuration (2 single coils). Currently have a mini humbucker in the neck and a A3 Tele bridge pickup fitted with 300k pots. I find the bridge a tad bit bright so plan on going to 250k CTS pots. I have a couple all goobered up with solder that read in 225/230k range. But for the life of me can't remember what taper is preferred, or even how to identify either. Whasayyoo? To identify, measure the resistance across the outer two lugs to determine the full value of the pot (should be within 10% of nominal pot value). Then turn the turny goober about half way and measure the resistance from the middle lug to one of the outer lugs. (brain fart, forgot what the turny goober is called called). If the resistance you measure is about half of what the full resistance was, it's a linear pot. I really don't like linear pots (too drastic a change from 0 to 3, but find the standard log pot taper to be too drastic between 10 and 7 on the knob, UNTIL I use a treble bleed cap with a parallel resistor. That parallel resistor changes the taper a little and that I like. |
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Mar 24, 2022 18:30:23 GMT -5
Mr Goo, where did you find that info? To my understanding, the chart and text for the audio taper is a ‘through the looking glass’ inversion of reality. ie it’s showing / describing the characteristics of a reverse audio pot. And even the linear one may be over simplifying things, as it ignores the dead zone areas at the start and end of the pot track. So there’s no electrical change in the first and last 5% of the available mechanical rotation. The 1st rule of pots is avoid CTS if at all possible; their initial 15% rotation does nothing, ie their CCW dead zone is much larger than other manufacturers. So you get a reduced range of control adjustment for your money. My otherwise excellent Gibson R8 came with CTS pots - grrrr. Audio definitely works for tone, as there’s a much greater rotational range of control for the ‘bloom’. Linear is something of a hair trigger, ie the range of control is squished into the initial 20% rotation. For volume, it’s more a case of the style of use, and personal taste. Audio works best when used with gain / overdrive / heavy compression. For totally clean use, linear can work better, it allows a finer degree of adjustment, especially when blending pickups. |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 24, 2022 18:52:54 GMT -5
"The 1st rule of pots is avoid CTS if at all possible"
Interesting. Any particular brand you feel is better?
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Post by Leftee on Mar 24, 2022 19:17:22 GMT -5
I’ve been using Alpha pots the last year or so.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Mar 24, 2022 19:57:15 GMT -5
Not all audio taper pots are created equally. The taper varies. Some have a very crude audio taper, and it mostly shuts off by 7 or 8. Others are more gradual. CTS seems to be the biggest offender, but not all the time.
CTS doesn't have standard guitar pots. They make them to spec based on whomever is ordering from them. Even within the AllParts line up, it seems to be different whether you get the flat back or vintage back pots. Someone at CTS could probably tell us why on this variance, but I'm not really sure myself. Sometimes pots that cost a bit more are advertised as having a "smooth taper" or something to that effect, so whatever that extra line item is that CTS offers, they're probably getting.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Mar 25, 2022 14:01:00 GMT -5
I don’t have any recent experience of what’s available in the guitar pot market, sorry. For amps, I’m fairly happy with Bourns and Alpha Taiwan. I recall Bourns made a big push to get into the guitar pot sector a few years ago. The middle sliding contact can be referred to as the wiper. Audio tapers can be classified by their CCW to wiper terminals’ resistance at 50% rotation, as a percentage of the full track resistance. eg a 250k 10% audio taper pot would be 25k at halfway. Bourns and CTS default audio taper is 10%, Alpha Taiwan is 15%. Taper is typically untoleranced, it can literally be anything yet still in spec, so realistically, there’s no practical difference between 10 and 15% per se. The smoothness of how the taper is implemented is another matter  I think that for a minimum batch size, all the pot manufacturers will make custom variants of their standard lines, maybe about 200 pieces for CTS, down to 10 for Omeg. I’m not sure if the latter are in the guitar pot market though (splined shafts need to be an option). The manufacturer’s product line info generally list the options available (rotational torque, terminal style, shaft type, bushing spec etc). eg www.ctscorp.com/wp-content/uploads/450.pdf |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 25, 2022 14:54:06 GMT -5
I've read here and there that Bourns pots can be difficult to solder. Since its on the internet it must be true.😄
I've always used CTS pots and the only real niggle I've had with them has been inconsistent resistence in how they move. I have some that can be flicked a full rotation with a pinky, others are stiffer in how they rotate. I don't know if that's a manufacturing issue or maybe a byproduct of wear/heat during installation.
I have a couple Alphas on order, I'll blame Leftee if I hate them😄
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 25, 2022 14:56:11 GMT -5
Rereading pdf64s post I see reference to rotational torque. This probably accounts to my issue with that inconsistency.
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Post by Leftee on Mar 25, 2022 14:57:34 GMT -5
I've read here and there that Bourns pots can be difficult to solder. Since its on the internet it must be true.😄 I've always used CTS pots and the only real niggle I've had with them has been inconsistent resistence in how they move. I have some that can be flicked a full rotation with a pinky, others are stiffer in how they rotate. I don't know if that's a manufacturing issue or maybe a byproduct of wear/heat during installation. I have a couple Alphas on order, I'll blame Leftee if I hate them😄 Get in line. 😂 |
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Mar 27, 2022 22:25:42 GMT -5
What pdf64 says is my understanding at the moment at well. And I just tested a batch of 10 pots an hour ago, plus 30 other pots and all my guitar pots. What I found was a disappointingly high variance of...uh...variance...up to 20% from the claim. And like pdf64 says, to paraphrase, between manufacturers and batch runs, well, pots are like a box of chocolates ! And in my current understanding, much of the voice of a guitar comes from "art" or raw "luck" of the right match of pot, cap, and pickups. So if one wants a brighter or darker sound, and more control of the "inbetween" tones, one has to enter the muck of pots and cap magic. I was surprised by what Peegoo said because it's counter to some current internet pot gurus I've seen. The moral of the story is, pots and caps are a lot more involved and controversial than I ever knew ! I've also noticed old pots can act noticeably different than newer pots. I have no doubt USA pots act different than Korean one's. Maybe pots are like snowflakes...LOL All I really know is I have a B500K pot for my volume and an A500K pot for my volume with a mystery cap. And it appears I have no chance in hell of matching this exactly with all these potential variables. So expect to lower your standards or acquire a box of pots and caps and fire up the solder iron. I've already killed two pots from experiments so that might happen too. The payoff is, however, the tone of the guitar, and the control of the tone of the guitar, might be improved. With a little work and patience... At least, that's my working theory  |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 29, 2022 16:10:06 GMT -5
For grins I ordered 1 audio and 1 linear alphas and put the linear in the tone position of my Warmoth thinline while swapping pickups.
I'll likely swap it for an audio pot next string change. 😑
To my ear a barely perceptible difference until you get to around 8. Bah!
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Mar 29, 2022 16:21:52 GMT -5
For grins I ordered … 1 linear alphas … in the tone position of my Warmoth thinline while swapping pickups. I'll likely swap it for an audio pot next string change. 😑 To my ear a barely perceptible difference until you get to around 8. Bah! Hmm, that’s different to what I expect. If a setting of ‘1’ = full CCW minimum resistance and ‘10’ = full CW max resistance, for a linear 250k pot, all the change would occur between settings 1 to 3, with negligible discernible change happening for anything higher than 3.5. |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 29, 2022 16:36:28 GMT -5
I phrased it wrong. With the tone wide open I get no discernible tone roll off until it's almost completely rolled off.
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Post by Leftee on Mar 29, 2022 19:05:54 GMT -5
So… have we settled this yet?
Hey… it could be worse. This could be a 2A topic. 😂
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 31, 2022 13:19:32 GMT -5
To belabor the discussion, I think there is a lot of useable area between 10 and 3 with this linear tone pot.
If my ears weren't shot. 🤣
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Mar 31, 2022 19:51:41 GMT -5
pdf64's post is interesting.
I had been going on the assumption that a higher "quality" taper is going to be smoother. I seem to remember hearing that cheaper ones were just a couple linear resistors put together to mimic a logarithmic taper, but I can't verify that. Though, it sounds like there are two types, that tolerances (or lack thereof) might make a moot point. I suppose the 10% would be a sharper drop than the 15%, so maybe that is the difference I hear between different CTS varieties?
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gbfun
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Post by gbfun on Apr 1, 2022 5:43:14 GMT -5
Oh AK...How can you play so good if your ears are shot ? Maybe you don't need ANY tone pots...just jack up your amp treble to 10, max an EQ pedal treble to 10, set your guitar tone to 10 and play ? I tried to jam with a guy who warned me his ears were shot. I shoulda believed him... He could cut a sandwich with his sound ! But you ? Bah. Your recordings don't sound that extreme. We'll let you know when you lost your hearing. If we notice. But let me ask this question...what is the "ideal" knob setting on a guitar  What I mean is...pick your favorite "goto" sound. Would you like this sound set by Vol10 Tone10, Vol10 Tone5, Vol5 Tone10, Vol5 Tone5, Vol5 Tone0, Vol10 Tone0 or something else ? For instance, I have a guitar that I get a lot of usable tones between 4 and 7 on the linear VOLUME pot, but only when the tone pot is at ZERO. I have another that gets about the same sound with Vol10 Tone0. The reason I ask is because I remember some guitar god on Youtube saying he set is LP to Vol5 Tone 5 and then worked it from there. I always thought that this arrangement would be ideal because it would mimic an EQ pedal better....+5 to -5 on either side. For the volume side he'd set the amp volume to be ideal for his "goto" sound at Vol5. For the tone, he'd set the amp tone to be ideal when the tone knob is 5. A pretty dicey exercise I think. Feeling lucky ? That guy was ! So how does one "set" a tone pot position ? Assuming one WANTS Vol5 Tone5, one could use the amp tone pots to establish the "goto" sound, although it's possible the amp can't do it. Obviously, the guitar god had an amp that could. Or...one could discover the unique combination of pot ohms and cap that "move" the "goto" setting you already have on a guitar. For instance, if I want to move my Vol10 Tone0 to Vol5 Tone 5...I would match the amp/guitar volume I want to Vol5, try to replace the lost highs from turning down the volume on the guitar by turning up the highs on the amp. That's just for the volume. To make the tone knob 5 though, I'd have to reduce the Tone pot ohms to make it darker so I could turn it up to 5. Huh. That sounds crazy and above my pay grade. Or...you could leave everything the same like I'm going to do ! But there might be possibilities.. I certainly have a crazy excess of treble in my rigs to play with. I always turn treble low. I always thought it was there for all the old pros with ear damage ! Or stage volumes. Neither is my fate. But maybe, I need to consider using a B250K pot with a humbucker to get some range and let the amp treble do the work ? It probably won't work but I sure hate ice pick tones...MY ears work just fine ! My brain might be going to pot(s) though... Speaking of which...when I measure small 500K pots I get an ohm reading that is HALF of the 500K BIG pots ohm rating ! Who knew ? Yeah...I don't think we settled anything in this thread once and for all. Nice try ! |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 1, 2022 7:50:19 GMT -5
I've primarily been a wide-open volume/tone guy, particularly when tracking at home. The volume and tone pots served mostly for when I saw someone with their fingers in their ears back in the gigging days, hah.
Riding the volume knob has always been an interesting process. Most of my guitars have treble bleeds and I've had love/hate relationships with them. Generally I find them useless below say 6 or 7. On this particular Tele thinline I find it functional, on my solid body Tele I took it out all together. I like the resulting treble cut when backing off the volume a bit.
I am mostly serious when I say my ears are shot. I've learned to coexist with my tinnitus though it's always the loudest thing in my head. I think any success I have in the tone department is akin to a blind person navigating confidently through their home. I'd be in trouble if someone moved the tone ottoman on me, lol.
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Post by Leftee on Apr 1, 2022 7:53:41 GMT -5
"The Voices" still beat out my tinnitus.
RE: treble bleed. I prefer '50s wiring to a treble bleed mod. It always sounds more natural to my ears. "The Voices" agree.
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Post by Leftee on Apr 1, 2022 7:57:06 GMT -5
Well, I took a poll and most of The Voices agree. There are a couple that don't like anything. I don't know why I even bother to talk to them.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 1, 2022 10:08:28 GMT -5
I prefer '50s wiring to a treble bleed mod. Are we talking on a Tele? Got a diagram? |
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Post by Leftee on Apr 1, 2022 10:27:11 GMT -5
It’s all about the placement of the tone cap.  |
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 1, 2022 10:35:13 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll look under the hood of my main Tele when I feel like getting in trouble.
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