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Post by ninworks on Apr 6, 2022 7:21:24 GMT -5
I have been intonating my guitars since the early 70's and I am not sold on the 12th fret method that practically everyone teaches or uses. Yeah, it gets close but it never EVER works very well for me. I have been a believer that there is no perfect way to do it. It's all about getting an average along the length of a string to get it as close as possible in many different locations. Unwound G strings are the worst culprits as everyone already knows.
I always start with the 12th fret method but then I check it at the 7th fret, the 10th fret, the 5th fret, 17th fret, 19th fret, and then the 3rd fret and take an average. I usually check it in more locations than that after I finish with the others just to make sure there isn't one or two particular frets that may be way out of whack. Chances are that when I'm done it will not be "perfect" anywhere but it will be closer in more locations than it is when simply adjusting the saddles so it is in tune at just the 12th fret. There are a lot of variations due to grip strength or how hard the string is plucked. My way around that was to analyze which direction I picked the string the most. Either a down stroke or an up stroke. Whichever one I was the most comfortable with I used the opposite when setting the intonation. My thought was that I probably wouldn't hit the string as hard when using the direction I was the least comfortable with. For me, that is an upstroke.
I have had the best results with all my guitars intonating them that way. My reasoning is that since setting the saddles using any one fret may be accurate at that location but checking the intonation at just about any other fret location will present varying levels of accuracy. Mostly incorrect albeit slightly.
Does anyone else here do something similar? I am curious because, in my entire life, I have only ever seen one other reference to setting the intonation using different frets for readings and even that one was somewhat limited.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 6, 2022 8:23:50 GMT -5
There are a lot of variations due to grip strength or how hard the string is plucked To me that's the biggest variable. I would venture a guess that the largest percentage of setups are done with too passive pressure on the string. I used to measure 12th fret against it's harmonic, but now focus more on open string vs 12th fret with checks north of there. Then I pretty much go up the fretboard to look for anomalies. My biggest struggle is G string, first fret (as in the 3rd of an E chord). Some guitars just cooperate, others drive me nuts no matter how I address the nut. I have had success in the past fixing that issue with an Earvana nut, but I digress. Another component to intonation is Stratitis. Pickup(s) too high. |
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Post by ninworks on Apr 6, 2022 8:45:43 GMT -5
I have gotten to the point where I try to eliminate the G string on any chord below the 3rd fret unless it's just a root-fifth-octave power chord. If the note on the G string is critical to the arrangement by defining the chord then I'll play a different voicing where that note is on another string. Most of the time I mute it or try not to pick it as hard. That eliminates a lot of issues.
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Post by larryguitar54 on Apr 6, 2022 22:46:54 GMT -5
Yup been struggling with same issue. I don't have perfect pitch but I'm close enough that if the G or B string are a tiny bit off it bothers me to no end. I do the 12th fret/harmonic method too but I find touch and pickup height and generally bending the neck are larger variables. Also Teles are more forgiving than Les Pauls on that. I think I do the same thing and avoid the issue by playing different chord shapes.
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Post by Riff Twang on Apr 6, 2022 22:47:33 GMT -5
It's the nature of the beast. Guitars use tempered tuning, and can never be perfectly in tune or intonated, so one has to get as close as one can by any means possible and then work with that. Ninworks, your methods seem logical and thorough, and sound very similar to how I approach it too.
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sirWheat
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Post by sirWheat on Apr 7, 2022 5:01:35 GMT -5
Some people use different octaves, like third to fifteenth fret in trying to fix these issues. Really though, if you want to get anywhere close you're gonna have to do something with the nut. Simply shortening the distance between the nut and first fret will make a positive difference; I have heard that some makers (acoustic anyway) are doing this.
I have the Buzz Feiten set-up on a few of my guitars and like it a lot; chords sound great all the way up the neck. Easy and fairly cheap to do on an electric but few will find it worth the cost and effort for an acoustic. I took a class for it years ago...
I've never tried Earvana or any of the other similar products but from what I know I don't see why they wouldn't offer an improvement.
I have a MicroFrets Spacetone. Lots of things I don't like about that guitar (super-skinny neck, mainly) but tuning-wise it can't be beat.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 7, 2022 11:06:15 GMT -5
I agree with all of this.
Checking just at the 12th fret made sense when we were all using electronic tuners wherein you had to move a slider to change the pitch. Your open note and fretted note had to be the same if you didn't want to move the switch. With basses in particular I'll check 5th, 7th and 9th. As strings get older they will go flat and sharp and back again and it makes sense to set it correct in the places that get played the most.
It is a good exercise to play a chromatic scale with a good tuner and see just how off your guitar can be. Compare before and after changing strings, too. I like compensated nuts, but some guitars seem like they need them more than others. A barre F major at the 1st fret is always the big one for me - some guitars just will never sound in tune with that chord, but get a compensated nut on there (I've always done BF, but many are good), and it cleans up nicely.
Finger pressure is the biggest limiting factor today, followed closely by string quality. When I check a fretted note, I usually check it four or five times and take and average of those. I also tend to play with lighter pressure. My sense is that people who are extra attentive to clean intonation are going to learn a lighter touch out of necessity. I can't, as a tech, just set everything flat and assume they'll gorilla grip it the same way each time. Someone who plays ridiculously hard likely is just chopping chords. I had one co-worker who insisted everyone else intonated stuff way too sharp all the time.... we could never convince him that the problem was that he played an electric with 9s the same way someone would play an acoustic with 13s, and that HE was just playing sharp. He was pretty stubborn like that!
If a person who plays way too hard complains about bad intonation, it reminds me of the old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this....", "well, stop doing that!" More and more I think the same about things like fret buzz and tone - learn to play to get the tone you want in conjunction to thinking about the gear. If a guitar with immaculate fret work, a perfect setup and mile high action is buzzing too much for you, maybe the problem in this scenario is....
I had another co-worker who was a very good, very precise player - think Steely Dan cleanliness, with a bit of Allan Holdsworth thrown in, doing chord melodies. Even with a garbage tuner he'd get better results than anyone. He'd set with the tuner and use his ears to double check, often playing octaves up and down. Of course, the aforementioned co-worker always complained he intonated it sharp.
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DrKev
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Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on May 1, 2022 5:15:22 GMT -5
There is no perfect way. 12th fret kinda doesn't make sense to me, because we are checking fretted notes to an unfretted note. Comparing two fretted notes an octave apart (e.g. 3rd and 15th) may work better BUT open strings may be a little flat if fretted notes are in tune, or fretted notes may sound sharp if open string is spot on. Compensated nuts help with that but not totally (Ovation, Taylor and PRS shift the position of the nut closer to the 1st fret to do this, and there's Music Man and Earvana style nuts). If the nut slots are cut too high, it'll make this problem worse. Like Funky says, finger pressure is important and we usually finger fretted notes in such a way as to pull them sharp anyway so be careful and test many times. Pickup height will affect tuning and intonation *long before* you get close to the manufacturer's suggested closest height so watch out!
Even doing our absolute best, if you have an accurate tuner you will be shocked at just how much intonation varies across the neck and even from fret to fret and guitar to guitar. It's nothing to do with the quality or construction of the instrument (though poor fretwork or worn frets may make it worse). Perfect is just never possible and there is always at least one compromise of some sort to be made somewhere. But many/most people go their whole lives without noticing all this anyway. And you can bet your bottom dollar that 99.9% of all recorded electric guitar music was done either blissfully unaware of the issues or fudged enough to make it work.
So my two cents is this:
If being truly as accurate as possible at the expense of almost anything else is most important...
1) use the most accurate tuner possible. Use a tuner with strobe mode and watch how the speed of the pattern changes, from your reference tone to your test tone (e.g. open string to fretted note), rather than trying to judge a twitchy pointer/needle.
2) Set intonation only after you've done everything else, *including* pickup heights. Start by setting pickup heights as low as possible. After you've done neck relief, bridge and saddle adjustments, pluck the low E string. As it's ringing, quickly raise the bass side of the neck pickup. Find the point where tuning starts to pull flat. That's your maximum height. The other pickups which will add their own magnetic pull (though less so because they pull on stiffer parts of the string) so backing off a half turn is no harm either. Now set the treble side of the neck pickup for the tone balance you like. Then set the other pickups by ear to do what you need relative to the neck pickup.
3) Now you can intonate. Feel free to use open string vs 12th fret, or open harmonic vs 12th fret, or 3rd fret vs 15th fret. If the nut string slots and pickups are not too high, every method should give similar results. The low E string may never intonate well (because above the 12th fret the string is too thick compared to its length to ever sound right) so feel free to do it last and judge by eye relative to the A string, or by ear.
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Wrnchbndr
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Post by Wrnchbndr on May 3, 2022 13:41:57 GMT -5
You’re all correct here. I use the 12th fret method as a matter of routine. I’m an authorized Buzz Feiten tech, played with Earvana, and also have made custom offset nuts and I use offset nuts in the instruments I build. Its a matter of compromise and a compromise is the best thing that can be achieved. There’s no right or wrong but there are things that can be done to make a guitar work better.
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Post by LTB on Sept 26, 2022 22:51:05 GMT -5
I do The initial intonation at 12th fret, but i care A little more about the 5th and 7th frets. I do Check frets 1 and 2 to see how well the nut was cut. I feel Extremely fortunate if things are good ( or very close)
from frets 1-12
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009
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Post by 009 on Sept 27, 2022 7:47:03 GMT -5
Since there are so many variables that preclude overall precise intonation, aren't we almost as well off with a minimally adjustable bridge (single saddle) vs. a TOM? I was just looking at the Gretsch guitars on Sweetwater, and it seems that only the vintage models have a solid, one piece saddle, either a Bigsby Sorkin or Rocking Bar (like a lipstick tube). All the non-vintage guitars seem to have a TOM. www.sweetwater.com/store/search?s=gretsch+chet+atkins |
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Sept 27, 2022 11:38:47 GMT -5
When I intonate a guitar, I dial it in based on the individual player. The reason is it's next to impossible to get perfect intonation on the entire fretboard. For example, if the player is a strummer and uses mostly cowboy chords, I will adjust the neck, nut, and bridge to get good intonation up to about the 7th fret. Getting that G string to sound spot on in this area is an art form unto itself.
Shredders that use the entire neck are always a challenge because everything on the guitar has to be tweaked to help make intonation as accurate as possible.
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