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Post by cedarchoper58 on May 13, 2022 14:31:37 GMT -5
i have seen 250K volume pots range from 220k-280k do you think there is a difference you can hear on a strat thks
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Post by Auf Kiltre on May 13, 2022 16:08:07 GMT -5
Personally I think a 60k spread is audible, but can't exclude other factors, like if new strings were installed, pickup height changes, etc.
I replaced a volume pot that read 237k with a 300k pot that reads 294k and to me its noticeable with the same strings reattached. As expected, a bit more top end.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on May 13, 2022 17:52:21 GMT -5
If there’s a tone control in circuit, rather than worrying about the exact vol pot track resistance, there’s a far greater effect if the tone pot value is doubled. Due to the tone pot being in parallel to the vol pot.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on May 13, 2022 18:55:41 GMT -5
A little bit.
Most pots are +/- 20%, and I can count on one hand how many times in 20 years I've had someone get a pot replaced and comment that their guitar sounds different. Even for people who play the same guitar for several hours a week through the same rig.
It kinda depends on how deep in the weeds you want to get with pickups, wiring, cap values, and so on. On a Strat I kinda prefer it on the top end of the tolerance range as it can push the tone a bit towards that open Robert Cray/SRV slow tune/Little Wing sort of sound that I like. If I got a new Strat I doubt I'd be playing it thinking "dang this sounds good, but the pot value ain't right..."
If you REALLY want to be anal, put in a higher pot value, and buy a bunch of resistors along with some alligator clips. Put in a high pot value (500k or 1M), and clip in the different resistors in parallel (you can do it at the jack if you want - one end to hot, the other to ground) and you'll effectively be changing the load. So, a 500k pot and a 470kohm resistor will duplicate the sound a 250k pot. Get a bunch of resistors and you can try a bunch. This is extra handy if you have humbuckers and single coils mixed in the same guitar. Technically (I guess) it would change how it behaves as you roll the volume down, but I've never noticed or cared. Maybe pdf64 has an opinion on this?
The ULTIMATE anal level would be finding a trim pot to install, and use crazy high pot values. Never tried that, though.
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Post by Leftee on May 13, 2022 19:35:24 GMT -5
This specific topic comes up a lot.
Just try one and see.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on May 15, 2022 9:10:34 GMT -5
… put in a higher pot value, and buy a bunch of resistors along with some alligator clips. Put in a high pot value (500k or 1M), and clip in the different resistors in parallel (you can do it at the jack if you want - one end to hot, the other to ground) and you'll effectively be changing the load. So, a 500k pot and a 470kohm resistor will duplicate the sound a 250k pot... If there’s a tone control in play, the above seems to just be replicating what the tone control is doing (at high settings). So just use a regular 250k or 300k vol pot of your preferred brand, but change the tone control to 500k or 1M. At high settings of the tone control, the tone cap effectively becomes a short, so the load on the pickup becomes the vol and tone controls in parallel (all in parallel with the cable impedance and amp’s input impedance). I prefer a 250k or 300k vol control to 500k, as there’s less treble roll off when it’s turned down a bit. Due to reduced interaction between the increased source resistance and cable capacitance. At high settings of the tone control, there should be little difference between standard and 50s wiring. |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on May 15, 2022 9:29:07 GMT -5
Are you talking about the parallel resistance of the cap at that point?
I suppose it (potentially) could explain why changing cap values or omitting a tone control even when everything is on 10 can make a difference.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on May 15, 2022 12:16:05 GMT -5
The tone cap is in series with the tone control. When the control is set high, the reactive impedance of the cap is negligible, compared to the resistance of the control, at mid and high frequency ranges, certainly anywhere near the pickup’s resonant frequency (which is what gets damped by lower value vol pot). So when analysing the circuit when the tone control is set high, it’s reasonable to regard the tone cap and effectively a short. And hence the tone control is in parallel to the volume control. Most of the resistive range of tone control (eg 4-10) just varies the degree of damping of the resonant peak. It’s only very low settings where the actual reactive impedance of the cap comes into play, leading to the 0 setting, where the cap interacts with the pickup’s inductance, resistance and capacitance to form a resonant filter with a lower frequency, typically in the low mids. Within the normal range of values, eg 100-10nF, the actual cap value / its particular quirks don’t make much difference unless the tone control is set low. Hope that makes sense  This page is super helpful in understanding the topic buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/ |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on May 15, 2022 14:22:45 GMT -5
Though, we're talking specifically about roll off of highs, right? The understanding I've had is that the total circuit interacts with the properties of the coil to alter the Q, resonant peak, and other characteristics as a whole.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on May 15, 2022 14:31:25 GMT -5
The tone control doesn’t roll off highs per se (eg like a typical simple RC low pass filter) until it’s set really low.
As described above, most of its range acts to progressively damp the resonant peak.
Zollner really gets into the weeds with this stuff, I’ll find a link for it.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on May 15, 2022 15:10:38 GMT -5
Ah yes, I misread what you wrote the first time - sorry.
Unfortunately so much of this stuff is frequency dependent. I'm sure somewhere out there there's a good set up where you can just sweep through and graph what everything looks like when you tweak different specs, but I wouldn't even know where to start or if it is affordable.
What determines the reactive impedance of a cap? The actual capacitance, or something else? I ask because there ARE some differences in tone with controls all the way up between cap values, and I'm struggling to figure out where that would come from if it is effectively seen as a short.
By parallel resistance, I may have been using the wrong term. I'm thinking when my LCR meter gives me a resistance value in addition to a capacitance value - I haven't looked to see what that is, but would that value be the "effective short" you're talking about? Also, wouldn't that ALSO be frequency dependent? It my limited understanding/reasoning, any component that reacts differently with different frequencies has the potential to have a sort of fingerprint, and thus a "sound".
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DrKev
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Post by DrKev on May 16, 2022 5:35:55 GMT -5
Unfortunately so much of this stuff is frequency dependent. I'm sure somewhere out there there's a good set up where you can just sweep through and graph what everything looks like when you tweak different specs, but I wouldn't even know where to start or if it is affordable. I use CircuitLab. www.circuitlab.com |
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009
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Post by 009 on May 16, 2022 7:02:23 GMT -5
Intriguing… I had to look this up and got this web page: www.electronics-lab.com/top-ten-online-circuit-simulators/No fees listed, but a couple are free. #5 seems like the best place to start for me. It would be cool if one of these had an audio input (eg, mini music player), and an audio output to hear the effects of circuit modifications. |
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