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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 11, 2022 17:27:28 GMT -5
are they one in the same when it comes only from the amps volume level not a pedal? thks
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 11, 2022 17:36:55 GMT -5
Distortion (clipping type) is what happens when more gain is applied to a signal than the circuit can cope with yet stay in the linear range. Turn gain up, and the signal gets more distorted. But gain per se isn’t distortion (or overdrive or saturation, whatever the preferred terminology is). Gain just refers to the signal output voltage / signal input voltage, within the circuit’s linear range. Volume and master volume controls are gain controls. Different labels tend to be used according to where the gain control is positioned along the equipment’s signal path or gain structuring architecture.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 11, 2022 18:13:47 GMT -5
Distortion (clipping type) is what happens when more gain is applied to a signal than the circuit can cope with yet stay in the linear range. Turn gain up, and the signal gets more distorted. But gain per se isn’t distortion (or overdrive or saturation, whatever the preferred terminology is). so if you want your notes to stay clean and not distorted you cant turn the amp way up on the volume right? how can you get to the sustaine level without cranking the amp making the notes distorted but just smoothe sustain? thks
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 11, 2022 18:37:53 GMT -5
To get the most clean power output, an amp’s master volume (ie last gain control in the signal path) should be set high. If there’s no master volume control, then by default there’s a notional preset control that’s set high. Whether that in itself achieves a smooth sustain is another matter. One option is to use a compressor pedal.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 11, 2022 19:12:53 GMT -5
To get the most clean power output, an amp’s master volume (ie last gain control in the signal path) should be set high. If there’s no master volume control, then by default there’s a notional preset control that’s set high. Whether that in itself achieves a smooth sustain is another matter. One option is to use a compressor pedal. I use a blackface pro reverb which uses one volume knob (no master volume) and crank it to 7 or so to get great sustain and i do use a tube screamer set to low gain (about 9 am) but it gets distorted some, I would love to get that endless undistorted sustain like SRV or Hendrix. I have considered different power tubes now im using Tungsol 6L6's which are dependilble since the amp gets real hot and runs 480V on the plates at 36ma bias. The rig sounds great but im always trying to improve
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jul 11, 2022 20:17:51 GMT -5
You're using a Strat, I assume? If your pickups are too close it can kill sustain.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 11, 2022 21:08:14 GMT -5
You're using a Strat, I assume? If your pickups are too close it can kill sustain. I get great sustain its just i have to crank the amp where its slightly distorted and i would love to clean it up some more like Trower. Maybe im just to obssesed at least that is what my wife says I use the 62 Strat in my proflie picture with guitar into a 1969 Vox V846 italian wha to a old 1981 TS9 to the amp
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 12, 2022 3:54:05 GMT -5
To reduce the distortion, I suggest to turn reduce the TS gain and amp volume settings a bit, and add a compressor pedal to achieve the sustain. It’s probably best to patch the compressor between the guitar and the TS. That way, you may be able to stop cranking tge amp so hard, and so get a cleaner sustain. 480V seems high, the 6L6 may be getting worked too hard, they can seem to develop a bit more of a brittle, edgy tone up there. What mains VAC do you measure at your wall outlet? It may be a bit high, probably over the 117V that the amp was designed for, maybe around 125V, and you may benefit from reducing it down a bit, using a BrownBox or a DIY mains bucker. The point being that reducing the mains voltage to the amp will reduce all the voltages inside it, so everything will run a bit cooler, back where it’s supposed to be. www.brownbox.rocks/www.geofex.com/article_folders/vintvolt/vintvolt.htm
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 12, 2022 12:26:17 GMT -5
I have a 105VAC tap on my attenuator but it seem to make my amp kinda lifeless. I run 123VAC on the wall. I dont think my bias pot has enough room to bring it up far enough so a experment would be a huge undertaking
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Post by Leftee on Jul 12, 2022 12:40:43 GMT -5
I will usually use the heater voltage as a gauge of what the amp wants from the wall. If the amp filament voltage is over 6.3VAC, it could be an indication that it wants less VAC from the wall.
I have a Brownbox for a couple of ancient amps in my herd. That device is a must for those.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 12, 2022 12:44:02 GMT -5
... I dont think my bias pot has enough room to bring it up far enough … Not sure what you mean there?
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 12, 2022 13:27:50 GMT -5
... I dont think my bias pot has enough room to bring it up far enough … Not sure what you mean there? ajustment to bring it up over 30ma
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 12, 2022 17:01:49 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean there? ajustment to bring it up over 30ma Do you mean when you’re running it at 105V? 105V seems rather low, the valves may be out of range on the heater voltage, ie below 5.7VAC.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 12, 2022 17:15:29 GMT -5
ajustment to bring it up over 30ma Do you mean when you’re running it at 105V? 105V seems rather low, the valves may be out of range on the heater voltage, ie below 5.7VAC. when i drop to 105V the bias drops to like 20ma and it needs to be around 50ma i think because the plates drop to around 400V. I tried the 105V today and my amp loses a lot of volume and drive.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 12, 2022 18:05:30 GMT -5
105V seems too low. As suggested above, what’s the resulting heater voltage? eg take out the valve from V6, put one meter probe to its pin4-5 contact, the other to its pin9 contact. At least 6VAC would be nice, below 5.7 and the valves may not function correctly.
Now repeat with the amp connected to the full mains voltage.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 12, 2022 18:23:56 GMT -5
im sure my heaters are in spec now the amp was serviced a while back. it sounds weak on 105v so to me its not worth pulling it all apart to measure heaters. i dont know how to your way. im gona stick with wall voltage where it rocks
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 12, 2022 19:22:56 GMT -5
I wasn’t suggesting to take the amp apart to measure the heater voltage, merely to remove the valve in V6. Ok, it’ll need the back panel removing to do that.
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Post by pcalu on Jul 12, 2022 19:55:16 GMT -5
Not sure the OP needs to mess with the Amps Bias (that's what it sounds like to me he want's to do)
There are so many things he hasn't explored yet.
For example : What's his signal impedance. Cruddy impedance ... guts sustain, kills the dynamics of the signal. What kind of guitar chord is he using? is it decent? how long is it?
From the sound of it.... probably needs a buffer and a decent compressor.
I rock a Pro Reverb... my pedal rig leads off with a compressor and ends with a buffer. The result is plenty of gain (sustain when clean) with a signal that still has a lot of tonal dynamics.
There is ... as with everything... a happy medium... to much gain and you get a loud amp with a lot of signal fizz when idol
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 13, 2022 12:19:52 GMT -5
Not sure the OP needs to mess with the Amps Bias (that's what it sounds like to me he want's to do) There are so many things he hasn't explored yet. For example : What's his signal impedance. Cruddy impedance ... guts sustain, kills the dynamics of the signal. What kind of guitar chord is he using? is it decent? how long is it? From the sound of it.... probably needs a buffer and a decent compressor. I rock a Pro Reverb... my pedal rig leads off with a compressor and ends with a buffer. The result is plenty of gain (sustain when clean) with a signal that still has a lot of tonal dynamics. There is ... as with everything... a happy medium... to much gain and you get a loud amp with a lot of signal fizz when idol how loud do you run your volume on your PR? What compresser? I run a attenuator with amp volume on 7 treb 8 bass 2. My line is guitar (62 Strat in profile picture)- 20' cable- 1969 Vox V846 italian wha- TS9 tube screamer (which is a buffer) drive around 9am- tunner (Korg)- 30" cord-amp. my cords are live wire. If i shorten the cords or remove the wha it gets to bright and piercing. if i turn the trebble down it losses its ripping gain sustaine. It sounds great with a band but thin without. if i crank the bass it gets muddy. I get a lot of sustain but it has kinda a sizzling to it especialy on the bridge pick up. I would love to get a smother creamer tone like SRV or Trower or Kenny Wayne thks
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Post by pcalu on Jul 13, 2022 20:07:22 GMT -5
Not sure the OP needs to mess with the Amps Bias (that's what it sounds like to me he want's to do) There are so many things he hasn't explored yet. For example : What's his signal impedance. Cruddy impedance ... guts sustain, kills the dynamics of the signal. What kind of guitar chord is he using? is it decent? how long is it? From the sound of it.... probably needs a buffer and a decent compressor. I rock a Pro Reverb... my pedal rig leads off with a compressor and ends with a buffer. The result is plenty of gain (sustain when clean) with a signal that still has a lot of tonal dynamics. There is ... as with everything... a happy medium... to much gain and you get a loud amp with a lot of signal fizz when idol how loud do you run your volume on your PR? What compresser? I run a attenuator with amp volume on 7 treb 8 bass 2. My line is guitar (62 Strat in profile picture)- 20' cable- 1969 Vox V846 italian wha- TS9 tube screamer (which is a buffer) drive around 9am- tunner (Korg)- 30" cord-amp. my cords are live wire. If i shorten the cords or remove the wha it gets to bright and piercing. if i turn the trebble down it losses its ripping gain sustaine. It sounds great with a band but thin without. if i crank the bass it gets muddy. I get a lot of sustain but it has kinda a sizzling to it especialy on the bridge pick up. I would love to get a smother creamer tone like SRV or Trower or Kenny Wayne thks Interesting .... Here is what I'm doing..... Various telecasters.... Fender original coil cable into an (Boss Tuner) then into Xotic SP compressor set as unity gain, with the high compression setting. From there... a J Rocket Blue Note, then a J Rocket Led Boots, Dunlop Wah, Keely Mag Echo, Catlinbread Adineko, BBE optical Tremolo, and finally a TC EC Elctronics Bona fide Buffer .... Into a 74 Silverface Pro Reverb.. MY Standard EQ setting Treble on 3, Base on 3 Stage Volume around 4-5 which is the sweet spot where one of the overdrive pedals will kick it into saturation. (After 5 on the volume my PR starts to overdrive naturally... 6-8 full on saturation after that light, medium to heavy sag till its dimed) My amp isn't biased all that hot either... Your amp EQ setting is typically Treble 8 and Base 2 Interesting.... (what speakers are you using? It's a true Black face pre CBS right? If your using decent speakers it might be you have some components that have drifted in the tone stack of the amp ... it's an old amp, components do drift ) ...& How clean is your PR on volume 7? Mine, as cited is overdriving like the best of them... Do you control your tone and overdrive with your guitar's volume? Or is the amp fairly clean on 7?
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jul 13, 2022 20:22:37 GMT -5
Not sure the OP needs to mess with the Amps Bias (that's what it sounds like to me he want's to do) There are so many things he hasn't explored yet. For example : What's his signal impedance. Cruddy impedance ... guts sustain, kills the dynamics of the signal. What kind of guitar chord is he using? is it decent? how long is it? From the sound of it.... probably needs a buffer and a decent compressor. I rock a Pro Reverb... my pedal rig leads off with a compressor and ends with a buffer. The result is plenty of gain (sustain when clean) with a signal that still has a lot of tonal dynamics. There is ... as with everything... a happy medium... to much gain and you get a loud amp with a lot of signal fizz when idol how loud do you run your volume on your PR? What compresser? I run a attenuator with amp volume on 7 treb 8 bass 2. My line is guitar (62 Strat in profile picture)- 20' cable- 1969 Vox V846 italian wha- TS9 tube screamer (which is a buffer) drive around 9am- tunner (Korg)- 30" cord-amp. my cords are live wire. If i shorten the cords or remove the wha it gets to bright and piercing. if i turn the trebble down it losses its ripping gain sustaine. It sounds great with a band but thin without. if i crank the bass it gets muddy. I get a lot of sustain but it has kinda a sizzling to it especialy on the bridge pick up. I would love to get a smother creamer tone like SRV or Trower or Kenny Wayne thks
Do you have the 57/62 pickups in there? Those have a sort of snap to them that some love, but can be a nuisance. If you're struggling to get a direct tone that you're happy with, that seems to me like it might be an issue. They wouldn't be my first (or second or third) suggestion for someone wanting sustain or a SRV style tone.
As pcalu pointed out, the EQ settings raise an eyebrow for me, too. If you need the treble that high with cables and pedals and dropping it is killing sustain, that sounds... not right. I've never known a Fender blackface amp to need the treble cranked, and that is a pretty big differential between direct and with pedals. Super high capacitance cables maybe? The buffers on wahs can be pretty obnoxious, too.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 13, 2022 20:26:05 GMT -5
I use factory oxford speakers and its not real clean at 7. Its a true black face 1967 year. The amp should be in good standing it was fully serviced a year ago and all out of spec parts were replace. I do use my volume and tone knobs a lot. i run it up on 7 because that is what my heroes have always done for great tone and drive SRV 7 on the volume and Hendrix way up to that way it will rip or wail with or without the tube screamer on. I rum my 68 Marshall on 8 and it sounds amazing.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jul 13, 2022 20:32:36 GMT -5
How healthy are the speaker cones? Around here (southwest desert) I don't think any speaker cones that old are still kicking. They've all dry rotted.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 13, 2022 21:59:07 GMT -5
How healthy are the speaker cones? Around here (southwest desert) I don't think any speaker cones that old are still kicking. They've all dry rotted. there used and have been used daily for decades and are in a airconditoned environment
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Post by reverendrob on Jul 14, 2022 2:09:31 GMT -5
I had one of those Vox wahs - it wasn't exactly transparent.
It sounded good when I wanted that, but it killed the tone generally.
I sold it and the vinyl bag for a small fortune to a Hendrix nut.
The TS isn't going to be transparent either - the mid hump is existent no matter what.
I'd also consider an EQ or treble boost if you're really lacking in that sparkle department.
I would also consider a hearing check - if you're getting up in years, chances are your high end isn't what it used to be, which would explain the high treble settings with no results assuming functional amp/speakers/tubes.
On pretty much any BF Fender 6L6 with single coils that's going to be a BRIGHT, BRIGHT monster.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jul 14, 2022 3:04:53 GMT -5
Wah pedals greatly benefit from a true bypass switching mod. Stock, their input impedance is typically 68k, which loads down the guitar somewhat, damping the pickup resonance and reducing the treble. But I suggest to avoid a buffer before the wah, as that may make the wah response too bright.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jul 14, 2022 9:49:06 GMT -5
How healthy are the speaker cones? Around here (southwest desert) I don't think any speaker cones that old are still kicking. They've all dry rotted. there used and have been used daily for decades and are in a airconditoned environment You know how when your tires and brakes wear out you almost never notice "these aren't working like they're supposed to" but when you get them fixed/replaced, it is a sudden, jarring difference? If you've been using those speakers daily for decades, that might be the effect. I don't know enough about speakers to say how much any of us should bet on this being an issue, but I do know that I almost never see original '60s cones that sound optimal. The best I've heard is they have a bit of a warm crunch that is charming at lower volumes, but certainly not suited for what you're seeking.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 14, 2022 10:08:39 GMT -5
I prefer the tone suck on non bypass wha. Hendrix was non. I crank the amp to 7 but dont push the speakers hard because i use a attenuator and prefer the sound from tubes cranked not pedals
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 14, 2022 11:46:16 GMT -5
how loud do you run your volume on your PR? What compresser? I run a attenuator with amp volume on 7 treb 8 bass 2. My line is guitar (62 Strat in profile picture)- 20' cable- 1969 Vox V846 italian wha- TS9 tube screamer (which is a buffer) drive around 9am- tunner (Korg)- 30" cord-amp. my cords are live wire. If i shorten the cords or remove the wha it gets to bright and piercing. if i turn the trebble down it losses its ripping gain sustaine. It sounds great with a band but thin without. if i crank the bass it gets muddy. I get a lot of sustain but it has kinda a sizzling to it especialy on the bridge pick up. I would love to get a smother creamer tone like SRV or Trower or Kenny Wayne thks
Do you have the 57/62 pickups in there? Those have a sort of snap to them that some love, but can be a nuisance. If you're struggling to get a direct tone that you're happy with, that seems to me like it might be an issue. They wouldn't be my first (or second or third) suggestion for someone wanting sustain or a SRV style tone.
As pcalu pointed out, the EQ settings raise an eyebrow for me, too. If you need the treble that high with cables and pedals and dropping it is killing sustain, that sounds... not right. I've never known a Fender blackface amp to need the treble cranked, and that is a pretty big differential between direct and with pedals. Super high capacitance cables maybe? The buffers on wahs can be pretty obnoxious, too.
my guitar is a all origional 62 Strat. the only replace things are fretts- volume pot with correct replacement and saddles with fender replacements
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jul 14, 2022 12:14:21 GMT -5
how loud do you run your volume on your PR? What compresser? I run a attenuator with amp volume on 7 treb 8 bass 2. My line is guitar (62 Strat in profile picture)- 20' cable- 1969 Vox V846 italian wha- TS9 tube screamer (which is a buffer) drive around 9am- tunner (Korg)- 30" cord-amp. my cords are live wire. If i shorten the cords or remove the wha it gets to bright and piercing. if i turn the trebble down it losses its ripping gain sustaine. It sounds great with a band but thin without. if i crank the bass it gets muddy. I get a lot of sustain but it has kinda a sizzling to it especialy on the bridge pick up. I would love to get a smother creamer tone like SRV or Trower or Kenny Wayne thks Interesting .... Here is what I'm doing..... Various telecasters.... Fender original coil cable into an (Boss Tuner) then into Xotic SP compressor set as unity gain, with the high compression setting. From there... a J Rocket Blue Note, then a J Rocket Led Boots, Dunlop Wah, Keely Mag Echo, Catlinbread Adineko, BBE optical Tremolo, and finally a TC EC Elctronics Bona fide Buffer .... Into a 74 Silverface Pro Reverb.. MY Standard EQ setting Treble on 3, Base on 3 Stage Volume around 4-5 which is the sweet spot where one of the overdrive pedals will kick it into saturation. (After 5 on the volume my PR starts to overdrive naturally... 6-8 full on saturation after that light, medium to heavy sag till its dimed) My amp isn't biased all that hot either... Your amp EQ setting is typically Treble 8 and Base 2 Interesting.... (what speakers are you using? It's a true Black face pre CBS right? If your using decent speakers it might be you have some components that have drifted in the tone stack of the amp ... it's an old amp, components do drift ) ...& How clean is your PR on volume 7? Mine, as cited is overdriving like the best of them... Do you control your tone and overdrive with your guitar's volume? Or is the amp fairly clean on 7? what power tubes and bias do you use and what pre tube in V2 = V1 on the vibrato channel and which input? i use input 1 a Tungsol 6L6's biased about 65% 36ma and jan philips 12Ax7 long plate. I have noticed if i put diff 12Ax7's it makes a big difference usually not a bright and less gain thks
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