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Post by Larry Madsen on Aug 1, 2022 8:56:18 GMT -5
Some might recall I had a thread "pawn shop project". I bought the guitar for $80.00 and then proceeded to have my way with it. This was the end result.  DSC_2151 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Once I began to tweak things a bit, I discovered a bit of a "kink" in the neck on the high E side at about the 7th fret. Then as I got into the truss rod, I realized the nut was pretty well stripped out. Conclusion, the neck is a goner. I guess that's the luck of the draw when you "impulsively" purchase a cheapo guitar at the pawn shop.  The reality is that the pick-up (cheapo or not) sounds strong and good. I put a bit of work into the body to eliminate the tone control, new bridge, strings through the body, paint it yellow ... I actually like the thing.  I've been searching around to see if I could find another cheapo twin to scavenge a neck from, problem being ... I run the same risk all over again. No guarantee the neck will be worth a dam. My conclusion: I might be light years ahead if I just buy a cheapo Warmoth neck. Any (even cheapo) Warmoth neck is going to be a pristine and a great playing neck. The neck pocket on the First Act measures 2 3/16", same as standard Fender and it is a 25.5" scale length. Right now, I could purchase this neck from Warmoth for $204.00. It would be a custom order, but not terribly expensive.  IMG_3778[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I'd like to retain the original styling of the entire guitar ... including the head stock. Here is the question: How tough a job do you think it would be to cut the original "First Act" head design into this paddle? The original head stock is actually quite small, almost tiny. Contemplating if this is a valiant project or just a risky, crazy notion. Edited to add: As I sit here the thought of using a router could be the ticket. Simply cut the head stock off the old neck, screw it onto the new neck (at the tuner holes) as a templet. Then go after it with a "flush cut" router trim bit. The screw holes in the new neck would be drilled out for the tuners anyway.
Sound like a plan? |
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sirWheat
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Post by sirWheat on Aug 1, 2022 19:19:05 GMT -5
As good a plan as any, though it looks like you're gonna have gaps at the corners of the pocket due to the rounded fender design.
If I were doing this I'd make a template out some MDF or plywood. That way there's no worry about having to cut the old headstock off perfectly. The two-sided 3M tape, commonly available at hardware stores does a good job of holding the pieces together while routing. Use your flush-cut bit to rout the template from the old headstock then do the same to make the new one. You can have a go at fixing the old neck if you want that kind of project.
It is a cool looking guitar.
Upon further inspection, looks like the amount of fretboard after the 22nd fret is quite different between the two necks...
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Post by Larry Madsen on Aug 1, 2022 19:33:09 GMT -5
looks like the amount of fretboard after the 22nd fret is quite different between the two necks. The existing fret board has "over-hang" below the pocket. I had some thought about if the First Act has a Strat shape heel or a Tele shape heel. Poor focus on the PIC, but you can see.  IMG_3786[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr This 22 fret Warmoth neck (on one of my other Warmoth builds) has the over-hang.  IMG_3784[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr You are correct in that on the neck I pictured from Warmoth web site does not show overhang. Maybe that's the generic nature of the image. That is the image from the "custom build" program on Warmoth web page. Edited to add: Here is the info from Warmoth on 21 vs 22 fret. 22 fret would have the overhang like on my green guitar above. Seems they don't define that on the "custom build" image. IMG_3785[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr |
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Aug 2, 2022 6:38:49 GMT -5
Cool, should work then.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Aug 2, 2022 7:47:08 GMT -5
I just measured the neck pocket depth. It's not really easy when using two guitars both with necks installed, but here is what I get. The green Warmoth build pretty clearly appears to be 5/8". The First Act might be 11/16" ... harder to tell for certain. So, there is a possibility I could need to shim it just a tad. Not the end of the World there.  I'm not ready to order a neck today, but I will need to include some planning. Existing First Act neck is a tilt back. I'll stick with that option. I could go to mahogany, which would actually be my preference. The open grain on mahogany could add some slight complication to painting the head stock yellow. I'm no stanger to grain filler, so that can be overcome. Any thoughts regarding the workability of maple vs mahogany. I know the first item of business toward avoiding ripping out wood is to have a fresh sharp bit. With an unfinished neck I'm guessing maple (oil finished) could be better over time. |
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Aug 2, 2022 18:51:43 GMT -5
I don't mind the open grain look myself, painted or not.
Mahogany is a wonderful wood to work with, especially with hand tools. Maple can be a bear. I have worked a ton of maple over the years as a carpenter/cabinet maker and if cost/availability were equal I'd choose mahogany every time. Good pieces of cherry and walnut are similar in that it's almost as if there's no grain to it, easy to chisel, sand, machine, etc.
But in your situation, all you're doing is routing the headstock shape so it's not THAT big a deal. Either way, draw out your shape and cut it back as close as possible to your lines so that the routing will be easy. You probably already know this but in this case (and most others) you want the amount of wood you're removing to be less than half the width of your bit to minimize chatter and chipping. I like spiral-cut bits best.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Aug 5, 2022 8:57:58 GMT -5
A flat block with stuck on sandpaper carefully used in the pocket can tilt a neck back ever so slightly... not as much as a shim, but sometimes a non-flat pocket turning flat is enough to kick it back, if that is necessary. The mechanics of the operation will naturally tilt it backwards as it flattens.
After that, worst case scenario the bridge has to move to intonate correctly. I'd check that pretty soon upon receiving the neck, since that could turn out to be a big PITA. Judging by where the 22nd fret lands you probably won't have to, but it never hurts to do some layout first.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 12, 2022 14:29:16 GMT -5
I'm about ready to order my Warmoth neck for this project. I'll run this by everyone here just to help me be certain I am not making a silly mistake. Neck width at the nut: I usually order the 1 11/16" which translates to 43mm on the Warmoth spec. Important when matching the existing head shape to the Warmoth paddle head. I anticipate there will be some finessing as the head merges with the neck, but if they are closer to begin with ... that is going to be helpful. This is the measured width on the existing neck.  IMG_4467[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr It appears my preferred neck (at the nut) width is a very close match. Next up is the neck pocket. The neck pocket on the First Act looks pretty much like a Tele shape.  IMG_4468[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr The neck pocket depth is 18.15mm or .715". Translates to a little closer to 11/16" than 3/4". Warmoth pocket is 5/8". I'll need to plan on some work matching up the neck and this deeper pocket. Shim of one sort or another will most likely be necessary. Neck pocket width on the First Act body is 56.25mm. Warmoth is 56mm, so slight difference there as well. Plan is: Modern tilt back Maple w/Indian rosewood fret board 1 11/16" width at the nut / standard thin profile 11-16 compound radius / 22 fret 6230 vintage frets / white side dots (no fret board inlay) No nut install (probably be in the way while routing head stock) Standard 4 bolt / Tele shape. Some of the choices (admittedly) were keeping the cost down a bit. Does anyone see any obvious things I might be missing here? |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 13, 2022 9:19:50 GMT -5
This will be my starting point with the Warmoth replacement neck:  IMG_4472[1] by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Still hoping for any input on prior post and specs before I place the order. |
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 13, 2022 11:36:09 GMT -5
Looks good, near as I can tell. I think you've done your homework.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 13, 2022 12:38:32 GMT -5
Thanks sirWheat. Neck is ordered. I don't make a lot of mistakes and that is often on account of me getting a second set of eyes to verify what I am doing. Appreciated. |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 19, 2022 13:42:38 GMT -5
Hmmm, I have two Warmoth Tele style necks both 1 11/16" (43mm spec) wide at the nut. One measures at 43.34mm and the other at 43.07mm My existing neck (as noted above) is 42.96mm. Since this neck is my "initial" template I will need to widen the "final" template. With a couple of days off and cold days outdoors, I thought I'd get a little prep work done while I await the new neck. This is a piece of 1/4" oak I had sitting around.  IMG_4525 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr I did this tracing from the existing head stock. I figured to trim this down then rout it to match the head stock. This piece of 1/4" oak will likely become my "final" template. With that in mind I need to build some extra width in at the merge point at the neck/nut. Obviously, a bit too wide (compared to the new neck) can be worked with, a bit to narrow would be a disaster. The headstock quickly widens above the nut, so I need width at the nut then far enough up the head to allow me to finesse the curve up to the corners. I'm thinking layer (s) of "tape" at nut area on the original neck to allow me to rout the template and add width. Good method? Bad method? Other ideas? Edited to add: Of note here is the fact that the two Warmoth necks I am measuring have finish on them (adding width).
My new neck will be unfinished. |
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 19, 2022 17:59:42 GMT -5
Mmm, not much of a difference...you'll find out how much when you get the new neck.
But if the new one is a bit wider you can, given that the headstock shape increases quickly as you said, trim your template back a bit until the two measurements agree. With such a small difference you won't see any problems by shortening the overall length of the headstock by that little bit.
Or, you can always make your template by hand to whatever measurement. A spindle sander is great for such things but not necessary.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 19, 2022 20:32:04 GMT -5
The differences in nut width seem pretty small with the numbers you give, and well within the sort of tolerances you get just from final sanding and blending lines. I wouldn't worry too much, as you can use your final shaping method of choice to ease it into where you want.
If it was me, I'd be thinking more of a center line so I don't get that template on crooked. Unless you made it to index against the fingerboard edge, it looks like you'll eyeball it? I'd probably scribe in some center lines just for reference, even if they are ultimately not needed.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 20, 2022 6:09:34 GMT -5
As I am working with the template I am envisioning it staying attached to the existing neck.
Right now, it appears I might be able to lay the new neck right on top of the existing neck (template sandwiched between). Then line up the headstocks at the nut and line up the necks down the length keeping the head stock straight.
If what I am seeing in my mind actually works, it will make more sense in a picture once I get it set up. 😜
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 20, 2022 10:45:13 GMT -5
Yeah, it depends on how much you want to duplicate the original. I mean, no one is going to look at it and say "geeze, why didn't he take the time to learn the correct peghead shape of a vintage First Act?!"... so, the more vague your lines, the more chances to work it with a spindle sander and get it how you want it to look.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 20, 2022 11:03:23 GMT -5
Yeah, it depends on how much you want to duplicate the original. As I see it ... the end result should be very near to an exact duplicate. Assuming I don't do something stupid. |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 22, 2022 18:35:53 GMT -5
Thinking out loud here: The template is on top of the original headstock ... it will stay right there for the entire process.  IMG_4536 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr There is a solid rectangular block below the headstock. That block provides a way to secure the entire unit into my vise to keep it solidly stationary. I cut a recess "scoop" into the block to allow it to attach to the flat back of the head without any of the "tilt-back" shape interfere.  IMG_4538 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr To cut the new headstock will attach it directly on top of what you see here. I expect I'll need to "scoop" the template to allow the new to sit flush on the template. I should be able to use the two stacked necks sandwiched between a couple of flat boards to each side and align things as perfectly as possible.  IMG_4537 by Larry Madsen, on Flickr Once they are sandwiched and routed, I should be able to drill the tuner peg holes at that same time. |
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 23, 2022 0:20:05 GMT -5
I hope it works o.k. for ya. Seems like more trouble than is necessary and a lot easier to mess up compared to just attaching the template to the new neck. You're planning on somehow attaching the new neck to what I see in the photos and then routing, correct? If so, seems like you're asking for problems.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Dec 23, 2022 13:23:16 GMT -5
Trying to explain it probably makes it seem bad.
It’s really dead simple and will insure good alignment
It will Also be very solid while doing the cutting.
I’ll update when the new neck arrives. 😜
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 24, 2022 10:04:29 GMT -5
On the tuners, I'd grab a ruler and measure out where they are in relation to the curves of the side of the peghead and distance from each other, write it down, and do a fresh layout once you have the outside laid out how you want it.
Trying to duplicate large holes means trying to re-center from traced holes that might be oblong. This means the placement is going to get wonky, and it can be enough to just not seem right once you're done. You'll duplicate any errors in the original, and probably exaggerate them, too. If you measure, you'll get clean points on the centers, and you will get a better final product. Less likely to be fudging things as you go, too. You'll probably find that they work out to nice round numbers, too.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 13, 2023 19:51:55 GMT -5
Well, my new neck has shipped from Warmoth. It is hung up in the poor weather out West. |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 15, 2023 11:46:16 GMT -5
Well, my new neck has shipped from Warmoth. It is hung up in the poor weather out West. Update: looks like it will arrive by Tuesday evening. 👍🏻 |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 17, 2023 20:16:11 GMT -5
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 18, 2023 0:03:16 GMT -5
Oooo. Looks good! That headstock is a bit big, yathink?  The weather here out east affects my shop activities...mostly finishing, because it's cold in the shop, which is my garage, which is attached and if I heat it and shoot finish my entire house air will get polluted by the solvents. I hate living like a normal civilian! |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 18, 2023 9:06:06 GMT -5
The weather here out east affects my shop activities Me too. Probably more you than me, but I do know Queenie does not like it when I run the router in the kitchen. |
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 18, 2023 11:03:51 GMT -5
Queenie does not like it when I run the router in the kitchen. Tsk tsk! Your wife will never truly appreciate the light, airy fluffiness of a souffle prepared The Correct Way. But be careful. You know how mixers and blenders have settings that progress from chop, to mince, to blend, to liquify? 35,000 RPM on this Bosch Colt = vaporize.  LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I am not promoting use of the router as an actual kitchen tool. I am a professional goober, and your use of such holds harmless Peegoo, L.L.C., of any injuries that may result. So there. |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 19, 2023 20:35:17 GMT -5
Queenie does not like it when I run the router in the kitchen. Tsk tsk! Your wife will never truly appreciate the light, airy fluffiness of a souffle prepared The Correct Way. But be careful. You know how mixers and blenders have settings that progress from chop, to mince, to blend, to liquify? 35,000 RPM on this Bosch Colt = vaporize. LEGAL DISCLAIMER: I am not promoting use of the router as an actual kitchen tool. I am a professional goober, and your use of such holds harmless Peegoo, L.L.C., of any injuries that may result. So there. I have an unhealthy curiosity how that would work out, now. |
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jan 20, 2023 1:11:15 GMT -5
Might be advisable to wear your safety glasses plus an armored suit.
At that RPM I envision the beater vanes being slung right off the shaft.
Let me know how it works out … if you give it a whirl. 😜
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 20, 2023 10:28:53 GMT -5
I showed it to a coworker (in a guitar repair shop), and he thought it would be a finger remover. The high torque and long beater would make it unbalanced and the whole thing would spin out of control, eventually nabbing a digit. It would probably need to be powered on the first time at a very safe distance to verify it is even safe to hold. If it could make it into someone's hands, then that is most of the battle, right there.
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