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Post by windmill on Oct 28, 2022 17:33:44 GMT -5
Hello
I have a hollow body gretsch 6120 with filteron ( gretsch humbuckers) pickups.
I can hear a buzz or hum noise through the amp that stops when I touch any of the metal parts of the guitar.
What needs to be done to stop this hum /buzz noise ?
Thanks
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Post by Leftee on Oct 28, 2022 18:16:14 GMT -5
It sounds like you have a bad ground.
First… did you try a different cable?
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Post by windmill on Oct 28, 2022 20:00:13 GMT -5
No, will try a different cable and report back.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Oct 28, 2022 20:51:36 GMT -5
The hum going away when you touch hardware or the strings is the instrument functioning normally. You're adding yourself as a ground and also as a big fleshy RF shield, and that is why the hum drops. The question is whether the initial buzz is excessive or not.
Plug the guitar in, and touch each electrical one by one, reaching under knobs to touch each pot, pickups, switch, and so on. If touching any makes the buzz INCREASE, that means it is not grounded. If it decreases, it is grounded. If you have a multimeter, you can do it with the probes. You should have continuity from all of those parts to the sleeve of the jack.
If all of that passes, the normal solution would be to add shielding. Not an option for a hollow body guitar. You could rewire it with better wire. But, that's very time consuming, and expensive if you have to pay someone else to do it. That leaves the final option: live with it.
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Post by windmill on Oct 29, 2022 0:29:37 GMT -5
A brief test with a different cable seems to have reduced the hum but I need to do it when the house is quieter.
Thanks for the suggestions. ☺
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Oct 29, 2022 2:57:57 GMT -5
As funky said, your ground is just fine. But funky is mistaken that the your body is grounding anything, in fact your body is a sort or relay transmitter for the source of the noise and touching the metal parts of the guitar is grounding your body which reduces the noise. Sometimes shielding works, for guitars where cavity shielding is not possiby shielded wiring might help, but sometimes your only remedy is to find the source of the noise and switch it off. Could be an old TV or monitor, dimmer switches, fluorescent tub lights, air conditioning or a transformer somewhere (could be in your house, or a few houses down the street in some cases).
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Post by windmill on Oct 29, 2022 5:13:32 GMT -5
Nope, the different cable didnt make any difference.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Oct 29, 2022 6:22:35 GMT -5
The reality of all this is some guitars are simply 'tuned antennas' that pick up more noise than other guitars do. And amps simply amplify. Desirable signal and undesirable noise all get the same indiscriminate treatment from the amp: they get louder as you turn up the volume.
If you have a guitar that is just more noisy than your others, you can try a few things. Shielding can help, but not always. A common thing to reduce noise is to remove any 'extra' wiring in the guitar circuit. For example, extra length on a pickup's leads. Doing this reduces the gain of the "antenna" and can greatly reduce the noise.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Oct 29, 2022 9:49:59 GMT -5
As funky said, your ground is just fine. But funky is mistaken that the your body is grounding anything, in fact your body is a sort or relay transmitter for the source of the noise and touching the metal parts of the guitar is grounding your body which reduces the noise. Sometimes shielding works, for guitars where cavity shielding is not possiby shielded wiring might help, but sometimes your only remedy is to find the source of the noise and switch it off. Could be an old TV or monitor, dimmer switches, fluorescent tub lights, air conditioning or a transformer somewhere (could be in your house, or a few houses down the street in some cases).
Isn't the ground bit more of a both/and thing than that, though? If I touch a live circuit, I get electrocuted because I'm "grounding" it, right? But you're right, I tend to speak in more colloquial terms because I'm not an EE and I'm usually speaking to the lay person.
It is also worth noting that this guitar almost definitely has shielded wiring already - it just may be of the cheaper, stranded variety. I'm not sure how comparing the wiring qualities works out for noise. I know the capacitance can change, but I've never bothered testing for noise. In any case, it is a lot of effort and not worth considering unless you're doing a full rewire for other reasons already.
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Post by Leftee on Oct 29, 2022 10:04:32 GMT -5
The reason I mentioned grounding is that I had a buzzy Strat that also quieted when I touched the strings, etc. It was my first Strat so for a couple years I unknowingly accepted the situation.
I was in the trem cavity and noticed the ground wire to the claw had a seriously cold solder join. I reflowed the solder and viola! The hummy/buzzy thing was dramatically reduced.
$.02
😊
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Oct 29, 2022 11:33:13 GMT -5
The reason I mentioned grounding is that I had a buzzy Strat that also quieted when I touched the strings, etc. It was my first Strat so for a couple years I unknowingly accepted the situation. I was in the trem cavity and noticed the ground wire to the claw had a seriously cold solder join. I reflowed the solder and viola! The hummy/buzzy thing was dramatically reduced. $.02 😊 Interesting.
If the cold joint was completely open, it would buzz more when you touched the strings. Layman's theory: I wonder if it effectively had a slight capacitance, and was pretty much "open" when you didn't touch it, but by touching it, it overcomes the capacitance? I think of it because that is why dead pickup coils sometimes read okay with a regular DCMM.
It could mean looking for cold joints is another troubleshooting option. There might be a way to test it with a LCR meter, maybe?
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Oct 29, 2022 11:53:37 GMT -5
The way I think of it, both funky and Dr Kev are right. ie the player’s body is a large conducting object acting as a receiving antenna for electrical fields in the local environment. If the player’s body is connected to circuit screen, eg via touching the strings that are themselves connected to the guitar screen, then any signal resulting from those electric fields collapses, as it’s dumped to the screen. However, if the strings etc aren’t adequately connected to the circuit screen, then the player’s body radiates out all the electric field signals that it’s received, and as the pickups / guitar wiring are in close proximity, they will be vulnerable to themselves receiving it. As ever, I’m careful to avoid the use of the term ‘ground’, as things work just the same whether there’s an actual connection from screen to planet earth or not. eg the player might be using a wireless connection. Apologies if that results in me using somewhat convoluted phrasing sometimes
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Oct 29, 2022 12:04:39 GMT -5
As ever, I’m careful to avoid the use of the term ‘ground’, as things work just the same whether there’s an actual connection from screen to planet earth or not. eg the player might be using a wireless connection. Apologies if that results in me using somewhat convoluted phrasing sometimes Ah, that makes sense to me. It is probably an over used word, and the precise meaning is much more specific. It might only be accurate to call the player's body a "ground" if he's standing barefoot in the dirt while he's playing, right?
It reminds me of how people bring an instrument into the shop with ANY electrical problem, they'll look very thoughtful and say "I think its a short". Even a scratchy pot. That's a "short".
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pdf64
Wholenote
Posts: 556
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Post by pdf64 on Oct 29, 2022 12:46:23 GMT -5
Actually, there’s a lot of precedent in electronic text books for using the ‘ground’ term somewhat loosely, ‘ground’ and ground symbols are used as if synonymous with circuit common, as well as meaning a connection to planet earth. eg one or other terminal of a battery becomes the conceptual ‘ground’ circuit common, even on stuff that isn’t mains powered, such as automobiles. So positive ground, negative ground, floating ground, are all common descriptions of various electrical / electronic arrangements, ‘ground’ gets used to describe a nominal circuit common reference point, regardless of whether there’s a connection to the planet. With training and experience, people become conversant at understanding the particular meaning from the context, but my view is that it’s not ideal at all. And for non techs (and even some techs!), I think it causes a lot of conflation and confused thinking. Hence I try to avoid using ‘ground’ or ‘earth’ for anything other than an actual electrical connection to our planet.
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Post by Leftee on Oct 29, 2022 18:21:58 GMT -5
The reason I mentioned grounding is that I had a buzzy Strat that also quieted when I touched the strings, etc. It was my first Strat so for a couple years I unknowingly accepted the situation. I was in the trem cavity and noticed the ground wire to the claw had a seriously cold solder join. I reflowed the solder and viola! The hummy/buzzy thing was dramatically reduced. $.02 😊 Interesting.
If the cold joint was completely open, it would buzz more when you touched the strings. Layman's theory: I wonder if it effectively had a slight capacitance, and was pretty much "open" when you didn't touch it, but by touching it, it overcomes the capacitance? I think of it because that is why dead pickup coils sometimes read okay with a regular DCMM.
It could mean looking for cold joints is another troubleshooting option. There might be a way to test it with a LCR meter, maybe?
I didn't dig into it. I just noticed that the original solder join didn't look like it flowed properly. It took my solder gun to it and the rest is history.
And ditto the "ground" topic. That's why you blokes refer to it as "Earth."
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Post by windmill on Oct 30, 2022 0:49:21 GMT -5
Thanks for all the responses.
One of the puzzling things was that I hadn't noticed this hum happening the last time I played the guitar.
So I plugged it into the amp I was using previously, a tweed deluxe kit amp built by a friend, using the same cable.
And it didnt have the hum.
Is it caused by something in amp, either "grounding" or the electrical interference generated by it. The problem amp is a Matchless Lightning 15, brought secondhand recently.
Any thoughts ?
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Oct 30, 2022 6:08:11 GMT -5
If the player’s body is connected to circuit screen, eg via touching the strings that are themselves connected to the guitar screen, then any signal resulting from those electric fields collapses, as it’s dumped to the screen. Even if a person is not electrically grounded, the human body acts as a ground 'sink' and it's actually the capacitance of the body that creates an audio filter to remove noise.
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Post by reverendrob on Nov 2, 2022 20:49:16 GMT -5
Some guitar/amp combos just hum like banshees.
If I knew how or why, I'd patent a solution.
But...I just accept "This guitar I love will not play well with Amp X", and I don't use Amp X if the usual solutions don't work.
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