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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 16, 2023 15:46:26 GMT -5
...and first time required to produce my LTC. Taking backroads to a store I turn left onto a road that had no visible posting and promptly got pulled over, 41 in a 30. Officer immediately told me to put the LTC permit away and just asked for my driver's license. Oddly also asked my wife for hers. A few minutes later he returned with paper in hand and I thought, oh crap a ticket. Nope, a "written warning" which by all checks doesn't go on my record and doesn't affect insurance.
I have been apprehensive about that first encounter after getting my concealed carry permit, this one was pretty easy.
Phew.
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Post by Laker on Apr 16, 2023 18:54:53 GMT -5
I have no idea what an LTC is but you managed to ovoid a speeding ticket that it appears you had earned. I guess that makes you a lucky dude, eh?
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Post by rickyguitar on Apr 16, 2023 19:02:26 GMT -5
I am guessing "license to carry"
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 16, 2023 19:07:25 GMT -5
Yep, LTC = "License to Carry". You never know the reaction of law enforcement to such things, but this being Texas...
Yeah, I was fortunate to not get a ticket, but making a left turn onto an unknown road with no immediate speed limit posting is pretty vague. Nice cop and read the situation well. I've had maybe 3 speeding tickets in my life and not since the 90's.
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Post by Seldom Seen on Apr 16, 2023 19:10:56 GMT -5
The fact that a permit holder must disclose it to law enforcement has always bothered me. If they want to search my car, well okay, here’s my permit. It sounds like the officer felt the same way. Then again, I guess a disclosure is safer for all involved. You did well.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 16, 2023 19:25:05 GMT -5
Where I live, a citizen has no "duty to inform" a law enforcement person. Now if I were asked directly if there are any weapons in the vehicle or on my person, I would answer truthfully. If I were asked to step out of the vehicle, I would certainly let the cop know he will find a peestola on my person. All this while moving very slowly and keeping my hands very still. Duty to inform varies from state to state. It is the individual's responsibility to know the laws regarding this stuff. Here's a map. Remember that this map is current TODAY, but it could change tomorrow and your own state's law may be different. So don't print this and hang it on your fridge for future reference April 2023 Duty to Inform
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 16, 2023 19:26:31 GMT -5
The fact that a permit holder must disclose it to law enforcement has always bothered me. If they want to search my car, well okay, here’s my permit. It sounds like the officer felt the same way. Then again, I guess a disclosure is safer for all involved. You did well. "Duty to inform" was an obligation in Texas when I got licensed, not sure how things changed since constitutional carry went into effect. I was lead to believe police have access to that information in the state based on DMV records being linked. It is and will continue to be my process during a traffic stop to present both driver's license and my LTC. My brother in Michigan makes it a process to recite a dialogue when stopped. Hands on the steering wheel, advised officer he has a concealed weapons permit (LCP in Michigan) and asks how he wishes for him to proceed.
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Post by reverendrob on Apr 16, 2023 20:43:29 GMT -5
I've found, fwiw, showing the permit when they ask for ID smooths it out - even when they ask for other stuff.
It's showing from the getgo you're not Joe Felon.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 16, 2023 21:00:38 GMT -5
Last time I was pulled over (very long time ago) I was directly asked if there were any weapons in the car. My understanding in Nevada is once they bring you up in the system, they know if you have a *concealed firearms permit*. If I am carrying, I want the Officer to know the score about weapons in the environment. I would also hand over both my DL and my CFP. If there are no weapons with me, I don't feel obligated to tell the officer anything in advance. I also would never go "racing around" with my hands during any engagement with LE.
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Post by reverendrob on Apr 16, 2023 21:15:51 GMT -5
I don't inform but it's my primary ID, they never ask either at that point!
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Apr 17, 2023 8:16:46 GMT -5
In my concealed carry training they suggested teh process that Auf Kiltre said his brother uses....pretty much verbatim. So I've always figured I'd go with that. I have no problem informing them if I'm carrying....I honestly think it's a good thing that we all know where we stand. No surprises is a good thing when dealing with the police.
From our training the sample dialog went like this: citizen: "Before we move on I should inform you that I have a concealed carry permit." Cop: "Are you currently carrying a weapon?" citizen: "Yes I am. How would you like to proceed"
Then let them guide the interaction from there.
@auf Kiltre - can you describe the interaction more. When you say required to produce...did he ask you or did you just give it to him first thing?
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 17, 2023 8:23:50 GMT -5
In my concealed carry training they suggested teh process that Auf Kiltre said his brother uses....pretty much verbatim. So I've always figured I'd go with that. I have no problem informing them if I'm carrying....I honestly think it's a good thing that we all know where we stand. No surprises is a good thing when dealing with the police. From our training the sample dialog went like this: citizen: "Before we move on I should inform you that I have a concealed carry permit." Cop: "Are you currently carrying a weapon?" citizen: "Yes I am. How would you like to proceed" Then let them guide the interaction from there. @auf Kiltre - can you describe the interaction more. When you say required to produce...did he ask you or did you just give it to him first thing? I had removed both driver's license and carry permit before he approached. I rolled my window down but he approached from the passenger side so I rolled down that window and immediately started handing him both. He clearly identified the carry license in my hand and said "you could put the LTC away" and didn't mention it again. My brother's first stop in Michigan was as a passenger. He recited the line and the cop said "Whacha carrying?" to which my brother said "Kimber 1911". The cop just replied "Nice!" and didn't pursue that any further.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Apr 17, 2023 9:19:56 GMT -5
In my concealed carry training they suggested teh process that Auf Kiltre said his brother uses....pretty much verbatim. So I've always figured I'd go with that. I have no problem informing them if I'm carrying....I honestly think it's a good thing that we all know where we stand. No surprises is a good thing when dealing with the police. From our training the sample dialog went like this: citizen: "Before we move on I should inform you that I have a concealed carry permit." Cop: "Are you currently carrying a weapon?" citizen: "Yes I am. How would you like to proceed" Then let them guide the interaction from there. @auf Kiltre - can you describe the interaction more. When you say required to produce...did he ask you or did you just give it to him first thing? I had removed both driver's license and carry permit before he approached. I rolled my window down but he approached from the passenger side so I rolled down that window and immediately started handing him both. He clearly identified the carry license in my hand and said "you could put the LTC away" and didn't mention it again. My brother's first stop in Michigan was as a passenger. He recited the line and the cop said "Whacha carrying?" to which my brother said "Kimber 1911". The cop just replied "Nice!" and didn't pursue that any further. The cops I've talked to have no problem with people carrying. I think they realize that the licensed carriers are not the problem and can actually be a good thing.
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Post by K4 on Apr 17, 2023 19:52:37 GMT -5
The cops I've talked to have no problem with people carrying. I think they realize that the licensed carriers are not the problem and can actually be a good thing. This is pretty much it. Most LE figure anyone who will go through process to obtain one is not a criminal. I find this even more true in a "constitutional carry" State.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Apr 17, 2023 20:12:35 GMT -5
Yep, LTC = "License to Carry". You never know the reaction of law enforcement to such things, but this being Texas... Yeah, I was fortunate to not get a ticket, but making a left turn onto an unknown road with no immediate speed limit posting is pretty vague. Nice cop and read the situation well. I've had maybe 3 speeding tickets in my life and not since the 90's. I also had 3 in my life, and got them within 3 weeks of each other. One was for going 47 in a 40. All were below 52mph (51 in a 35 was the big one). Not really sure what was going on that month and why I was in such a hurry.
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Post by LTB on Apr 17, 2023 20:19:41 GMT -5
Glad you had a good outcome Larry! Texas isn’t all that bad, well partially correct
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Apr 17, 2023 20:49:30 GMT -5
I got pulled over a few years ago - speeding in a construction zone, but it was a Sunday morning with no workers present and I wasn't aware it still applied. I was doing 42ish - a road where with no construction people go 50, posted limit was 25. There was nothing there except clean roads and traffic cones. He let me go. He asked me if I had any weapons (I remember "weapons" instead of "firearms", but I could be wrong) in the car, and I reflexively laughed because it is so far out of my personality and caught me off guard. I thought I might get in trouble for that, but he seemed to get it.
It makes sense. A cop pulling someone over isn't going to know if/how it is going to escalate and needs to survey the situation. The more they know early, the fewer split second decisions need to happen. A law abiding citizen will respectfully disclose that they're armed. I see no reason to deviate from this. Even in the days long before guns, disclosing your armed status and showing it put away and not a threat was considered part of a polite greeting.
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Wrnchbndr
Wholenote
Posts: 353
Formerly Known As: WRNCHBNDR
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Post by Wrnchbndr on Apr 18, 2023 1:13:43 GMT -5
I’m old and wear a hat when I drive.
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Post by Opie on Apr 18, 2023 7:16:13 GMT -5
I'm not at all comfortable about his asking a passenger for their license. On what grounds is that justified ? You were speeding=justifiable reason for stop. What crime or suspicion was your wife doing?
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Apr 18, 2023 8:43:45 GMT -5
I'm not at all comfortable about his asking a passenger for their license. On what grounds is that justified ? You were speeding=justifiable reason for stop. What crime or suspicion was your wife doing? I thought it was weird too. He was very respectful and I thought maybe it was a new requirement, but what I've gleaned from Google is that there is a statute in Texas that gives passengers the right to decline. I suppose the cop has the discretion to issue a ticket vs a written warning too, so compliance could have made the difference. Anyway, I'm pretty much a speed limit guy which in Texas usually means someone is glued to the rear bumper. On freeways I typically stay within 10 miles of the speed limit. The drivers here are insane and I'll often take back roads. Unfortunately that's what led to this stop.
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Post by Leftee on Apr 18, 2023 8:46:55 GMT -5
I’m a speed limit guy who uses cruise control a lot. The road we live on is the worst. It’s a nice winding slightly hilly country road with lots of driveways and a 45mph speed limit. I might be one of a handful of people who keep it at 47 or so.
I guess those drivers of the smaller cars like seeing their reflections in my rear bumper.
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Post by rok-a-bill-e on Apr 23, 2023 17:18:23 GMT -5
Philando Castile did everything right, had his carry permit, informed the LEO, obeyed commands, and still got hit with five of seven rounds fired from his open window at him sitting inches away in the driver's seat. I was once stopped by a cop who seemed to be on meth. His eyes were wide and his speech was hard to understand as he was absolutely screaming "do you know how fast you were going" which was only about 80 in a 70 but this dude was bouncing from foot to foot, highly agitated and almost trembling with excitement. I'm on the side of the road at midnight with my family in the car and I'm being as still and calm and politely answering "yes officer so sorry" as I can manage. I can easily imagine getting shot if I had done anything less, and he truly scared me. Some individuals should never be given a gun, a badge, and authority.
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Post by Ragtop on Apr 24, 2023 4:52:21 GMT -5
As a retired LEO, I was enjoying all of the reasonable and practical replies herein, which differ greatly from all the hysteria and angst I see on the TV news and in the newspaper about these issues.
Then I read rok's post, which I found disturbing. After reading it a few times, though, I have no problem believing it, unfortunately, and I applaud the way he handled it.
I was the training sergeant at my former agency for a long time back in the '90s, so it was my job getting the new hires trained up. I was not involved in the hiring of these new officers, just their training. And I can tell you this, out of every four people hired, one would be an outstanding officer, two would work out fine (most of the time), and the fourth would be a disaster and totally in the wrong occupation. The officer in rok's scenario would be, of course, of this last group. (I should say that these are "ballpark" figures.)
So, according to this theory of mine, 25% of the time that you are dealing with a LEO, you are dealing with someone who is not very good at his job. It is not easy to weed these people out for lots of reasons.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Apr 24, 2023 6:48:59 GMT -5
So, according to this theory of mine, 25% of the time that you are dealing with a LEO, you are dealing with someone who is not very good at his job. Wow, Ken ... I would never have guessed the number of "truly inferior" officers to be so high. I realize there must be some out there, but I would have guessed lower than (one in four) by at least half. Maybe one in eight or ten. Interesting assessment coming from someone who has been in the middle of it, especially at the training level.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 24, 2023 7:11:33 GMT -5
I’m old and wear a hat when I drive. A foil hat?
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Post by Ragtop on Apr 24, 2023 7:12:50 GMT -5
Larry, I'm not saying that the "1 in 4" is always a lunatic, as in rok's scenario. Some are, but some are just not very well-suited for the job.
I was thinking of you as I wrote that first post, because I know that you are an FTO. I was too, as a deputy.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Apr 24, 2023 7:18:59 GMT -5
compliance could have made the difference.
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Post by Rick Knight on Apr 24, 2023 7:44:54 GMT -5
There were no LTCs when I lived in Texas, but an officer I knew there told me that he assumed the presence of a loaded weapon in every vehicle he stopped. Whether he cared depended on the driver's behavior.
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