DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 4, 2023 9:53:13 GMT -5
I'm thinking of buying a small Dremel type tool for fret polishing. I've been very happy with micromesh but a) it takes time, and b) as long as Long Covid has me in its grip I have to reduce the amount of elbow grease required so I can still be functional after doing an instrument. But I know nothing about this kind of polishing and pastes. So what kind of polishing paste or pastes should I be looking at? Do the grits correspond to sandpaper grits? Is it possible to get a course paste for removing tool marks and scratches and then do another one or two to get to mirror shine?
Thanks so much, I really appreciate all your thoughts and advice.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jun 4, 2023 14:57:51 GMT -5
You'll have to sand out the coarsest stuff. It won't take out marks from leveling or crowning. I've never been able to successfully buff out anything rougher than 1000 grit. No micro mesh needed though - just regular sandpaper will get you that high. I've used finer polishes, but I honestly haven't paid much attention to what the actual grit is. Last time I bought a dremel set it came with a bar of compound, and that was sufficient.
Our shop had an unused, small stationary buffer that I commandeered for frets and I haven't looked back from that. Not sure what the compounds are on that either. The down side with it is that you have to tape off the fingerboard.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 4, 2023 18:43:51 GMT -5
I've haphazardly used a dremel to polish frets before using the small felt wheel and polishing compound provided in the kit that came with it. I did try to be cognizant of heating it up too much and it did seem to work ok. But being a bull in a china shop I didn't protect the maple fretboard and had one small oopsie and burned through the lacquer in one small spot. I haven't used the dremel since.
The best process I've come across was using a variety pack of micromesh I got from Klingspor's.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 4, 2023 19:08:23 GMT -5
I’m with Auf.
The arthritis in my hands probably wouldn’t fare any better with a Dremel, any ways. Using my hands hurts. Period.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 4, 2023 19:37:19 GMT -5
Oddly the hobby kit from Klingspor's is listed as a wood working variety pack of micromesh from 1500 to 12000 grit. But it worked fine on frets until I wore it out. Klingspor's shipping charges prevent me from reordering and I just found what appears to be the same kit on Amazon for less.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 5, 2023 5:11:28 GMT -5
Thanks y'all. You all rock.
I like the Micromesh, and when I was in full health I was happy to do the 8 steps through from 1500 to 12000. If it was just a question of pain I could work through that but the long covid leaves me with crippling fatigue. My body has a battery that only charges to 25% and if I drop below 20% I'm out of action for 12 to 24 hours. And y'all know how energetic buffing those frets can be. If I recover enough to do this more often this is part of my income so I need to move up in efficiency.
Right now I'm thinking I have a short list of a few cordless Dremel-like tools and bearing in mind I'm dealing with stainless steel frets, I;m thnking the brown coarse paste will help get the 800 grit scratches out and then shine with green fine paste. If there is a learning curve in not burning finish I'm prepared to buy some super cheap crappy maple necks and refine my technique if I need to.
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sirWheat
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For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
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Post by sirWheat on Jun 5, 2023 5:57:24 GMT -5
If you don't mind the cost and set-up, I recommend the Fordham tool. A thousand times better than dremel and choices of hand-pieces. So much more comfortable to use, way better control. I see that there are much cheaper knock-offs these days; can't speak for them but I would try one of those before any cordless tool. If you're trying to minimize fatigue then something with a flex-shaft (you can get one for a dremel) is surely the way to go.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jun 5, 2023 10:48:59 GMT -5
Thanks y'all. You all rock. I like the Micromesh, and when I was in full health I was happy to do the 8 steps through from 1500 to 12000. If it was just a question of pain I could work through that but the long covid leaves me with crippling fatigue. My body has a battery that only charges to 25% and if I drop below 20% I'm out of action for 12 to 24 hours. And y'all know how energetic buffing those frets can be. If I recover enough to do this more often this is part of my income so I need to move up in efficiency. Right now I'm thinking I have a short list of a few cordless Dremel-like tools and bearing in mind I'm dealing with stainless steel frets, I;m thnking the brown coarse paste will help get the 800 grit scratches out and then shine with green fine paste. If there is a learning curve in not burning finish I'm prepared to buy some super cheap crappy maple necks and refine my technique if I need to. Oooh, stainless changes it a bit.
Regular frets are so soft that a lot of metal work solutions seem too extravagant, since they're likely designed for polishing out chrome to a mirror finish or something. With frets, you just need them not gritty, and shiny to a point that is aesthetically pleasing. I get my frets very shiny, but realistically, if they were a large flat surface instead of fret shaped, you'd probably find them a bit hazy looking.
Having some power tool solution of your choosing will help a lot. It won't speed up the early stages at all, but the later stages will go much better. You can probably stop around 1500 or 2000 before switching to a power tool buffing method of your choosing. I'd pick whichever one seems most pleasant for you, rather than what seems like it will work best. I like my stationary buffer because the dremel wheels wear out quickly, like to skip around, and are kinda noisy and unpleasant. The biggest downside to the stationary buffer is that I HAVE to tape off the fingerboard. But, I like that for stainless. Taping it off means that when I get to around 800 grit, I can run my sandpaper along the length of the fret on each side (to preserve the crown) to knock down ridges before going up and down the fingerboard again. It makes the time spent with each grit more productive, and I am less likely to get to a high grit and realize a mark from a coarser grit is just not going to come out. With regular frets it is a bit of extravagance, but I consider it a must-do on stainless.
Again, I haven't paid much attention to compounds. The ones that seem best for a final buff seem to often be red, I'm not sure if that is a color code that will imply a certain grit.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 5, 2023 11:52:58 GMT -5
Its been more than a decade but my guy back in Michigan did not work on stainless steel frets. He seemed pretty indignant regarding the matter, saying it was too tough on tools. This guy was/is a highly touted luthier and proven top notch tech. I don't know if the prevalence of SS has changed his position since, but I found it interesting.
I had a capable friend refret my favorite Allparts neck with stainless 6230 wire several years ago, and I did the leveling, crowning and polishing. It was more tedious than nickel but not the nightmare I expected. I suspect its not luthier quality work but good enough for me.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 6, 2023 4:54:02 GMT -5
Auf - From what I read on the Stewmac website, Stainless frets only cause issues for fret tang nippers and cutters but they have not experienced increased wear on files or sandpapers.
Funky - The polishing compounds do have an *sort of* have a color code from most coarse to least...
Black - Brown - Green - White - Red - Blue.
and there are other colors too. But that can vary by manufacturer (and a few seem to ignore it completely). And the recommendations for which one to use when can vary widely too.
I've hatched a plan and ordered a brown and a blue. Brown as the coarse polish for removing scratches, so I'm hoping that will take care of the 800 - 1800 grit stages. The blue is a general purpose fine buffing compound, even suitable for plastics some say. My plan is sand to 800 or 1000 (maybe I can get way with 600?) followed by brown and blue.
FYI, red is the traditional jewellers rouge (rouge is literally "red" in French) which is said to bring out both shine and color in soft metals like gold, silver etc. Because of the widespread jewellers use it has become the sort of default buffing compound for small objects and hobby work, though it may not optimum choice for some things. I;m sure it would work just fine on stainless too.
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009
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Take me to your leader!
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Post by 009 on Jun 6, 2023 8:34:16 GMT -5
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Post by Leftee on Jun 6, 2023 14:20:41 GMT -5
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Post by Sharkie on Jun 6, 2023 20:30:36 GMT -5
^^ Great idea. I didn’t know you could purchase a complete fretboard protector.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 7, 2023 8:18:10 GMT -5
I didn't either until a couple days ago.
I'm hoping these work out. I bought three; the 25.5", and both 24.75" models.
They aren't the cheapest things, but they hopefully surpass my personal cost/benefit ratio. It seems like they should. I'll post my review once I've used them a bit.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 7, 2023 9:13:36 GMT -5
The single fret shields as sold by StewMac are functional but their narrow width can be a little clunky on the wider frets for the ham-fisted. Honestly I find taping off the entire fretboard the easiest way. I'll be interested how these work out for you Leftee.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 7, 2023 9:29:20 GMT -5
I find that, for best (safest) results, I need to tape and use the single fret guards. I can’t be trusted around a bare fretboard.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 7, 2023 14:21:39 GMT -5
I've seen fret guards leave scratches on fretboards. I've sanded mine down with 100 grit to avoid any sharp edges or burrs but I don;t trust 'em and still use tape instead.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 7, 2023 14:59:49 GMT -5
I’ve experienced that.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jun 7, 2023 19:07:33 GMT -5
I wouldn't use those big fret shields for a stationary buffer, and they're probably okay with a rotary tool, but it might be helpful to be cautious the first time. Catching an edge on a buffing wheel will grab it and whip it around pretty violently, and it would NOT be good with the stationary. With some reasonable caution, I imagine it is okay with a hand held one, but running over the fret end towards the edge of that guard might not go well.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 7, 2023 19:28:48 GMT -5
I’ll still work frets by hand. I’m not ready for the powered solution yet - if at all.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jun 7, 2023 20:06:34 GMT -5
Yeah, stationary buffers can be SUPER dangerous, and catching edges and loose parts is what causes most problems, so those metal edges sticking out the sides are giving me nightmarish visions... hahaha.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 9, 2023 10:05:42 GMT -5
Thank you all for your comments. I really appreciate it.
Update: I did deep dive yesterday, jewellers loupe and magnifiers came out for crazy-level inspection.
The blue rouge polishing compound is great on nickel silver frets (haven't tried SS yet). If you've levelled and crowned you will have to do your coarse sanding up to 1200 grit to get rid of tool marks but once you do, go straight to the blue compound and be done. It may even be possible improve my results even better with more attention to loading on the buffer wheel and technique.
Brown compound (brown tripoli, it's called) is a good intermediate step after about 1200 grit before the blue compound, and does improve the final finish a little, but I'm not sure it's necessary step on nickel silver, and I don't recommend it on its own (I kinda of expected that).
I have a new found appreciation for fret erasers because it's so easy to use the corners or the edge of the erasers to work the sides of the frets before the polishing compounds, which my wet-n-dry papers don't do very well (too stiff).
I also tested micromesh side by side on the same neck as a comparison. Working diligently through all the micromesh pads produces as good as finish as anything I can do with a rotary tool, but with a ton more time and effort. The rotary tool gives allows me to bypass the multiple 1500-12000 steps entirely. I'm officially done with micromesh for fret polishing.
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Post by Opie on Jun 11, 2023 13:08:51 GMT -5
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 11, 2023 14:45:44 GMT -5
The thing I've discovered when finishing up after a level/crown is to use 3x magnification at the minimum to inspect your work, particularly in the early stages. I've rushed through micro meshing thinking I've got the scratches gone and fawned over the shine when working up to 12000 paper. It didn't take long for the missed ones to reappear. Probably not telling y'all anything you didn't already know, but just sharing my learning curve mistakes.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 12, 2023 10:19:10 GMT -5
Auf, yes! On a small curved project like a fret it's easy to get a nice shine but not easy to get rid of the smaller scratches. Working through the earlier sanding grits is key. Right now I need something intermediate between papers and micro mesh.
Thanks OPie, I'm looking at similar stuff too. Radial bristle disk maybe? The 3m ones are damn expensive. Scotch-Brite pads can be cut and turned into buffing wheels for rotary tools so that may be na option too.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 12, 2023 11:06:50 GMT -5
This may sound a bit stupid, but stupid is as stupid does. Sometimes I do stuff to myself.
I found that I was over-tightening the muscles in my hands when I hand polish. Learning to relax the hand doing the polishing has done wonders for my Arthritis.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jun 12, 2023 19:41:55 GMT -5
Auf, yes! On a small curved project like a fret it's easy to get a nice shine but not easy to get rid of the smaller scratches. Working through the earlier sanding grits is key. Right now I need something intermediate between papers and micro mesh. Thanks OPie, I'm looking at similar stuff too. Radial bristle disk maybe? The 3m ones are damn expensive. Scotch-Brite pads can be cut and turned into buffing wheels for rotary tools so that may be na option too. Running against the grain along the fret helps a lot with getting scratches out completely, since sometimes just going finer means you're running in the grooves of the prior grit. Need a good fingerboard guard, though.
You might be able to reevaluate your crowning process, and start at a finer grit than usual. That might save some time.
Sometimes I'll use a piece of paper that I have for finishes before I buff, and that seems to work well. It is kinda pricey and nothing I'd buy just for frets, but I keep worn pieces around for odd uses like this and it is nice. Maybe it'll give you some ideas on what can be between sandpaper and buffing. I will usually do the usual 0000 steel wool before buffing, even though it may seem like it shouldn't make any difference.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 12, 2023 20:09:38 GMT -5
Double post
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Post by Leftee on Jun 12, 2023 20:10:14 GMT -5
True! I’ve started doing circular motions instead of running the length of the fret. This because I found that, running along the frets, I was making very shiny the existing scratches.
Really hoping these fret guards I just bought make this whole process easier.
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DrKev
Wholenote
It's just a guitar, it's not rocket science.
Posts: 418
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Post by DrKev on Jun 13, 2023 9:09:10 GMT -5
You might be able to reevaluate your crowning process, and start at a finer grit than usual. That might save some time.
You nailed it. I've been starting too coarse and also not going fine enough. Guess my mistake? European grits are more coarse than US grits of the same number. Euro P800 is in about a US 400 or 500. Incidentally, those are said to be about the same as MicroMesh 1500, though I always felt MM 1500 was finer than that. Yes, re-thinking my pre-buffing grits now. I spent a fun hour yesterday testing all kinds of crap with a Stainless Steel spoon yesterday. Brown Tripoli compound worked well here. High speed, low pressure, keep moving is key. The steel wire brush that comes with many rotary tool sets does a *great* job removing scratches. I don't want to see what it could do to a fret board, or nickel silver frets, but I'm getting crazy ideas that might just work.
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