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Post by Leftee on Jun 25, 2023 10:01:22 GMT -5
I've noticed this over the years, but freely admit that it could be by my own lack of skills/knowledge.
Do you ever come across a guitar (bought/built/whatever) that just seems to play extremely well? And others that you set up well, but they just don't have that special "it" when it comes to play-ability?
Over the years I've noticed that a small segment of guitars just come together to play extremely well - better than their peers. And even purchased guitars. In particular I had an Eastwood AC that I did a fret level on, and it was a crazy great player after that. I sold it and the buyer was also astounded at the set-up/play-ability.
My set-ups always turn out well. I've learned enough to do a really good set-up, IMO. But a select few guitars just rise to the top of the play-ability mountain.
My case in point is this guitar:
I bought that body from a maker in Canada. He seemed to have access to some very rotten (spaulted) flame maple. The back is cherry. It went together and set up to be one of those "awww yeah!" players.
After holding on to it for a year or so I sold it on Reverb. A guy out west (WY IIRC) bought it and left great feedback after the purchase. Fast forward to last fall. I was sitting in Church on a Sun. morning waiting for the service to begin when a message pops up in Reverb from the buyer. He said that after 2 years of playing this guitar it is the best playing guitar he's ever owned.
Am I full of it (well... yes, I am)? Am I not so great at a consistent set-up? Or is this a real thing?
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Post by ninworks on Jun 25, 2023 11:17:40 GMT -5
All of my guitars play from well to great. The best playing one is my 2013 Gibson Custom Shop CS356. The neck was twisted right out of the box. I contemplated sending it back to Gibson but they would have probably just replaced it. I also figured that if they couldn't do it right the first time then what would make me think it would be any better the next. I got a great deal on it so I decided to have my stellar guitar tech re-plane and re-fret it. It turned out so good that there's no way I'm ever parting with it. It sounds great too. i.postimg.cc/Kcs1fgwV/100-0857.jpg |
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jun 25, 2023 13:22:10 GMT -5
Lots of weird things happen with our perception.
I did work for a bass player who would SWEAR different basses had different tensions... even if he had the exact same strings and they were all 34" scale. He was highly proficient, he runs a music school now and does zoom lessons with people all over the globe, and you certainly wouldn't want to argue with him about something like that. He conceded that it made no scientific sense. He just knew some felt looser than others. My best guess has been that he gets different feedback through his ears making for very, very small adjustments in his playing that made the instrument feel different. But, just a guess.
Guitars are the same. You can measure the action on a bunch of guitars, get the fret work to the exact some place, some will feel very different. Neck profiles are an obvious explanation, but it doesn't always seem that simple. Sometimes it is something that the home set up person won't notice - radius at the bridge, nut slot height, string spacing - but not always.
I've also had people bring in a guitar complaining the action is too high, and then bring another instrument saying "make it play like this!" so I can measure it and duplicate it. Turns out, the better playing guitar has HIGHER action, and the customer is often baffled by it. Lots of things go into feel other than string height.
This is one of the most compelling arguments about why anyone should invest more in gear than what the audience can perceive. There is a player hand/ear feedback loop that is critical. Yo-yo Ma talks about how his prized cello has an amazing dynamic range. I doubt anyone who isn't sitting in the same room as him would notice the difference, but if it affects how he plays, then it is an important part of why people will listen to a Yo-yo Ma recording, and ignore the hundreds of other options of the exact same pieces. Indeed, "tone is in the fingers", but there is an interaction going on there.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 25, 2023 15:33:19 GMT -5
Yep. There are things that are inexplicable to me when trying to duplicate the same feel on another guitar with the same specs. I'm excluding sound/tone, I mean feel and playability. I acknowledge a lot may have to with things like minute differences in neck width, edge roll, fret/crown work, neck angle, string height at the nut, break angle at the bridge. The sum of these things may add up I suppose.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 319
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Post by sirWheat on Jun 25, 2023 15:38:06 GMT -5
Yep.
It seems to me that stringed instruments have a preferred set (or narrow range) of parameters with regard to set-up; go too far in either direction and weird stuff starts to happen.
I was tinkering with my Les Paul last year, (I go back and forth with this guitar, loving and hating) gave it a new bridge and raised the action a bit to match what I like on my other electrics. I immediately went back into a "hate it" phase; didn't feel good to play it, didn't like to stay in tune, so I put it away for a while. A few months later I got it back out; same annoyances. Then I remembered what I'd done to it and set the action back to where it had been and bingo, it went back to behaving itself. Maybe it's the case that they get inured to a given set-up after a while such that if I'd have continued to play it it would have smoothed out. Who knows? I've had other guitars that don't act right if they aren't tuned to A-440, or at least within a couple of cents of that.
Indeed, much of what gets argued about on guitar forums regarding tone, etc. is lost on the listener, even when the listener is another guitarist. The way a given instrument feels when you play it makes all the difference, which brings me to a tangential point; why do we make solid bodies so thick? I have three electrics that have 1 5/8" bodies and all of them feel so much nicer to play than my LP or Tele. I'm not saying that the tone is necessarily better for it but it sure feels better, which makes me happy and I play better. Given that so much is made of resonance with regard to tone it's a wonder that we still insist on the old standards.
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Post by Jim D. on Jun 25, 2023 17:35:42 GMT -5
Interesting topic Leftee. I was thinking about this very subject earlier this week. The only guitar I have ever purchased without playing it first is a team built Fender Custom Shop SSS Strat. I ordered it through a great, local, independent shop I have dealt with for years. When I went to pick it up after quite a wait, they told me it had been in for two days and they wanted to give it time to adjust to temperature, but they had not opened the case. I appreciated that given my impatience. The guitar was beautiful. The two tone burst was gorgeous and the fit and finish superb. Two piece body, so well matched it looked like one.The fretwork was perfect. I played it acoustically and it resonated. I then plugged into a Deluxe Reverb and it sounded woody with the notes blooming. But-the action felt stiff. I ordered it with standard 9-42 Fender strings and I thought maybe it had a standard 10 set. We mic'd them and they were in fact 9-42. I use a very competent luthier who is within a short walk from the shop and I decided to have it checked out. He played it and also stated it was stiff. He knows all my preferences and has gone over my other Strats and also various guitars, and what was out of my preferred setup was the bridge was floating higher than I like (I like them about the thickness of a medium pick off the body and a bit of movement when bending) and the strings were a bit high for me at the nut. I also asked him to change the strings to 9-42 Curt Mangan-plain 3rd. When I picked it up it was clearly improved, but still a bit stiff. The relief was where I like it, the intonation right on and the action fairly low as I prefer, and zero fret out or dull notes. When I play it, I have this feeling I am going through the mechanical aspects of the guitar as opposed to going from my head to the amp sound without thinking much about the guitar. My Fenders are USA with the exception of a MIM. All have been setup by this luthier. None of them have this stiffness, just the most expensive of the lot. It's not terrible, but never again will I buy a guitar without playing it. They can be significantly improved by a good luthier (and mine have been), but I am convinced if they don't feel substantially right initially there are certainly cases where you just can't change the nature of the beast.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 25, 2023 20:14:53 GMT -5
I have one parts Strat that I cobbled together; An MJT ash body that had a so-so 3 tsb I wasn't in love with (unextraordinary grain, a finish that got chalky at the relic'ing areas...but 3 lbs 13 oz and well constructed), an Allparts vintage spec'd vee neck. I decided to try my hand at a Mary Kaye relic, stripped it and refin'd with a white poly then relic'd, put in some Stew Mac pickups and some relic'd gold hardware. It's pretty abyssal looking but plays and sounds really good. I can't quite figure out what things factor in compared to my other Strats. The neck/body fit, the 2nd or 3rd fret level/crown I ever did...I dunno.
I'm tempted to strip it all down again and send it off to someone to do a proper clean 3 tone burst (opaque...the grain just ain't purdy). I don't subscribe to a finish being a tonal factor, but I fear just the act of disassembly and reassembly could mess with the things that make this guitar special. Beyond my analytical skills.
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Post by ninworks on Jun 26, 2023 5:21:56 GMT -5
My 72 Strat always felt stiff to me. The neck was too narrow at the nut so that also messed with me. I had a custom 25.5" scale 22 fret Musikraft neck made for it thinking that would help with some of my issues. The wider neck and compound radius made a difference but it still felt stiff. I put 008 to 038 strings on it and BAM. Perfect. I wish I could find some 0085 strings for it. I think that would be even better. It's just a slight bit too slinky for me but I'll take that over stiff any day.
The CS356 still feels better to me but the Strat is a now player. My second best playing guitar is my old 62 SG Custom. It has the lowest action of all my guitars and the upper fret access is awesome. The only thing about it is the middle pickup is in the way and my pick always hits it. I lowered all the pickups to the point where the tone started to suffer and it was still in the way so I put them back to where they sounded best and just deal with it. The PAF's in it pick up the clacking of the pick striking the pickups so I have to be very aware of it while playing. I can't eliminate it completely but if I'm really paying close attention I can minimize it.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Jun 26, 2023 5:43:41 GMT -5
Most of my guitars are self assembled projects. In my unsophisticated playing world they generally all have good playability.
My green Warmoth “Tele-Paul” is excellent.
I know there are plenty of instructions on the inner-webs regarding set-up, but I’d sure be interested in a thread among the members here on this forum regarding the finer points and step by step priorities on the processes.
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Post by Leftee on Jun 26, 2023 7:04:12 GMT -5
I think our lesson would be, “the universe is random and cruel.” 😂
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Post by Leftee on Jun 26, 2023 7:04:16 GMT -5
I think our lesson would be, “the universe is random and cruel.” 😂
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Post by Leftee on Jun 26, 2023 7:06:44 GMT -5
… “and fraught with double posts.”
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Jun 26, 2023 8:46:29 GMT -5
I think our lesson would be, “the universe is random and cruel.” 😂 Lol, whether in the cosmos or in the shop, chaos is the rule more often than the exception. |
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