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Post by justin on Dec 24, 2020 12:54:50 GMT -5
My new guitar toolbox thread prompted me to find the old toolbox I used over 20 years ago, and haven’t really opened since. We moved into this house in 2010 but I found the box buried in a bottom shelf in the garage. I just rummaged through its contents and whoa, that took me down memory lane! I was a college student back then and I had some crappy tools! Most interesting to this crowd is that I had a bag of old carbon comp resistors and small caps. Back in the day (I posted on the original TDP and other various forums, including the FDP) I did a cap job on on my ‘67 Bassman head (long gone). I mostly regret selling the ‘78 Vibro Champ I bought for $120. Not the most sought after vintage gear, but how cool would that stuff be today?!
But I digress... I found the original saddles for my 2000 Les Paul Standard. That was the guitar I bought when I “made it” lol when we signed with an long defunct independent label. I replaced the saddles with Graph Tech ones because I used to always break strings. I thought I was just heavy handed, but maybe the original (steel?) saddles just needed some love. I want to reinstall them. They are all notched the same. Should I go over these with my nut files, then fine sandpaper? Reinstall them as-is? Seeking out pointers. Thanks dudes.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 24, 2020 14:33:06 GMT -5
If they were the stock saddles, look very closely at them using magnification and you'll be able to put them in order, fattest string to skinniest string. Also pay attention to the angle at which the string slot is cut into the top of each saddle; there should be a slight 'ramp' that runs downward toward the stop tailpiece. This makes for clean noting and reduces the chances of the string buzzing in the slot. Each string should ride over the top of each saddle--not be buried deep in a slot. If the slots are gunky or corroded, use the proper gauge nut file to just clean out the gunk; don't remove metal. Also also note that it is common to reverse the G string's saddle to get a bit more distance for intonation adjustment:
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Post by justin on Dec 24, 2020 14:45:20 GMT -5
If they were the stock saddles, look very closely at them using magnification and you'll be able to put them in order, fattest string to skinniest string. Also pay attention to the angle at which the string slot is cut into the top of each saddle; there should be a slight 'ramp' that runs downward toward the stop tailpiece. This makes for clean noting and reduces the chances of the string buzzing in the slot. Each string should ride over the top of each saddle--not be buried deep in a slot. If the slots are gunky or corroded, use the proper gauge nut file to just clean out the gunk; don't remove metal. Also also note that it is common to reverse the G string's saddle to get a bit more distance for intonation. Thank you Mr. Goo. I have two guitars with Nashville style bridges and both have all the saddles facing the same direction with no intonation issues. The G string saddle on the LP is sitting almost all the way back though... I’ll take a close look at these stock saddles and try to line them up in order and ‘ramp’ direction. I’ll clean them up if needed.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 24, 2020 22:45:08 GMT -5
^^ Like ^^
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 25, 2020 9:07:27 GMT -5
A very light pass with a nut file (assuming reangling isn't needed) followed by a bit of love from a fine sandpaper will make it very nice. Go too crazy and you can end up with really deep slots, which can be a pain in its own way.
A person would have to be extremely heavy handed to need graphtech saddles where cleaning the old ones wouldn't work. You can also raise the stop bar slightly to help matters if you're concerned. The only time I've seen a guitar actually require graphtech was on an old Guild with a hardtail Strat style bridge. It was in the wrong place, so the saddles were very far back and the angle over the front of the saddle was extreme. Add that to a hard player and he was breaking strings. Other times the graphtechs have been avoidable with basic maintenance.
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Post by justin on Dec 26, 2020 12:49:39 GMT -5
A very light pass with a nut file (assuming reangling isn't needed) followed by a bit of love from a fine sandpaper will make it very nice. Go too crazy and you can end up with really deep slots, which can be a pain in its own way. A person would have to be extremely heavy handed to need graphtech saddles where cleaning the old ones wouldn't work. You can also raise the stop bar slightly to help matters if you're concerned. The only time I've seen a guitar actually require graphtech was on an old Guild with a hardtail Strat style bridge. It was in the wrong place, so the saddles were very far back and the angle over the front of the saddle was extreme. Add that to a hard player and he was breaking strings. Other times the graphtechs have been avoidable with basic maintenance. Thanks for the additional tips. I was heavy handed when I started playing out. I moved around a lot too. My first band when I was 15/16 was in the Hardcore genre. I discovered that strap locks were a necessity for me. I broke strings often back then. After I put graph tech saddles on my 1997 Am. Standard Tele back then I never broke another string. So naturally I put them on everything after that. Last night, I opened up another box I haven’t seen since moving into this house and I found a set of graph tech saddles that I once installed on my ~2002 G&L ASAT Classic Bluesboy Semi-hollow. That was the guitar that I discovered I no longer needed Graph Techs. The 2000 Les Paul has been largely neglected because I am convinced that I am a Fender guy. I’m trying to setup my LP to be more appealing to me today because it’s kind of a waste if it just hangs on the wall. I’m going to try top-wrapping the strings too. I’m also not in love with the Harmonic Design pickups that are in there now. I want to go vintage PAF style now.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 26, 2020 13:49:28 GMT -5
I think you're on the right track! A lot of guys who are Fender leaning change their minds when they get humbuckers that aren't too boomy or hot sounding. Even among the vintage PAF style, I find some can be a bit too bottom heavy. I think the '57 Classics are a bit clunky, and prefer Seth Lovers or Lollars, but to each their own. I haven't tried the Harmonic Designs and don't know where they fit in the spectrum.
You can try wrapping over the top, and you could also try just raising the bar a bit. If you're REALLY feeling saucy, you can try switching to an aluminum stop bar which takes even more clunkiness out. Food for thought.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 26, 2020 14:16:35 GMT -5
Both of my gibsons got aluminum bridges with brass saddles this year. Made quite a difference in both cases. I'm also using the "skinny top, heavy bottom" strings (or whatever they're called) as I don't like the floppiness that you can usually count on from the lower strings on shorter scale guitars.
Another thing to try (assuming your LP has humbuckers) if you haven't already; lower the pickups. Seems most info you'll get on the web still clings to the notion that you're supposed to have them set pretty close to the strings. That can make your LP pretty boomy, (especially the neck pup) which cam be pretty harsh to your ears if they're more used to single coils. I usually start with the neck pup pretty close to flush with the mounting ring and go from there.
As to your original question, I got one of my gibsons this fall and it came with saddles that someone had done a hack job on. It was a buzzy mess. I tried to fix them but ultimately gave up and got a new bridge. From what I can tell, you wanna keep from making the slots too deep and make sure that the break-point is on the leading edge of each saddle. Sounds so simple...
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Post by justin on Dec 26, 2020 14:30:28 GMT -5
Aluminum stop bar ordered... I’ve always wanted to try one of those anyway. Since I’m going to have the bridge off anyways I might as well change that out while I’m in there. It also should bring my 9.1 pound LP to under 9 lbs which should, you know... make me a better player.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 26, 2020 15:16:51 GMT -5
+1 I have the pickups on this LP lowered into the rings and it sounds amazing. The neck pickup is sweet and clear and bridge pickup gets twangy; sounds like a Telecaster that drank three cups of coffee.
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Post by Pinetree on Dec 26, 2020 22:47:13 GMT -5
Lowering the pickups is an awesome tip. You can accomplish quite a lot with some quality screwdriver time.
And having changed out the saddles on a Nashville-style bridge I can tell you that it's more difficult than it looks... however me personally, if I was going that far I would change them.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 27, 2020 11:55:39 GMT -5
I like the pickup height suggestion as well, and would also add adjusting the individual pole pieces. String-to-string volume balance might not be a perceptible problem most of the time, but when you dial it in, the whole pickup tends to just sound better.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 27, 2020 13:41:46 GMT -5
Is there some "usual" way that the pole-pieces should be set?
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Post by justin on Dec 27, 2020 13:43:36 GMT -5
Yup, I remember dialing in the perfect string-to-string balance back when this was my #1. I'm sort of starting over with this guitar. In the meantime I did lower the pickups and gained clarity and lost the mud. I'm going to try to keep these pups to the best of my ability. I also removed the pickgaurd to change it up a little bit. Wife is making us hike again today before it starts raining. Can't wait to get some alone time in the house, whenever that may be... Here's a pic from today. I always gravitated toward burgundy colored guitars back then (and hated blue). Now I welcome blue and wish this LP was a burst or a gold top, which would have cost more and this was already a stretch for me back then. Thank goodness for Saul at Centre City music back then, where 50% off list was the norm.
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Post by justin on Dec 27, 2020 13:45:00 GMT -5
Is there some "usual" way that the pole-pieces should be set? I think there are some superstitions about this. I set the string-to-string balance and then tweak the poles to form a pattern of some sort. It's OCD.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Dec 27, 2020 14:07:03 GMT -5
A famous tech goober years ago used to set the screw slots in a Les Paul like this: / \ / \ / \ so now some techs and players believe that pattern has something to do with making the guitar sound better. Just like with three springs in the back of a Strat set like this: /|\ It has absolutely no benefit to the sound or feel--no matter what anyone might have you believe. The Strat spring thing came from a pic a photographer at a gig snapped of the back of Hendrix's Strat (he left the rear plate off his Strats) and the springs were arranged in that "A" pattern. Guitarists the world over assumed this was part of the magic. Nope. Hendrix's mojo came from practice, and guitarists are basically lazy. Why waste time practicing whan you can just buy good tone? When I tweak the pickups, I start by raising the adjustable poles so they match the radius of the strings over the pickup. Next I set the amp to play very clean at a loud volume, and tweak the overall height of the pickup to get the tone and response I prefer. It is critical that you spend no more than about 30 minutes at a stretch doing this because of ear fatigue. Work with it, take a break for about an hour, and then come back to it. Seems like a tediouss way to do it, but it does pay off. Lastly I listen for string-to-string volume balance and tweak the individual heights of the screw poles. Generally, the one I move the most is the G string because it has a really small core wire which usually requires raising the pole. Sometimes the B pole gets lowered too.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 363
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 27, 2020 16:01:26 GMT -5
That's a beaut of a guitar and certainly more unique than a sunburst or gold top. I don't have any pics of mine to post but my '84 studio is a sunburst with a not so ordinary red. I like it better than the usual cherry.
I have messed with the pole-pieces before. Just set 'em to match the fretboard radius, tried raising them quite a bit once in an attempt to de-muddy them. I didn't like the results and lowered them back down. Sounds good to me though I've never considered the string to string balance notion. Maybe I'll get around to that one day. I'm all enamored with mini-buckers right now...
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 27, 2020 16:21:09 GMT -5
A famous tech goober years ago used to set the screw slots in a Les Paul like this: / \ / \ / \ I forgot about that. I used to hear that so often that my eyes would roll into my head so far I'd get a headache. I think his rationale was blah blah blah flux lines or something. My pickup height routine: (kinda long, sorry) - know what "too close" sounds like. It is that funny warble. If you don't know what it is, adjust them super close so you do know, then you can know when you're too close. Knowing what it sounds like means that it will be something you can't un-hear and that will be very helpful. - rough out individual pole pieces by eye. - Adjust bridge pickup to taste. I try to get the volume so a chord (jazzy chord extensions work well) has the high notes sort of sitting on top of the low notes. If I play one at a time and go for equal volume, I end up adjusting the treble side too low. Maybe that is just my ears. - Adjust the neck pickup to have roughly the same volume as the bridge pickup. Sometimes if the neck is too weak or the bridge too hot it is a compromise game, so use your judgement. I'll generally do this just with the low E and A strings, and then match the trebles to the bass the same way I did with the bridge pickup. - If it has adjustable poles, I play each note in succession and adjust for volume. You won' get it perfect, but you can improve. On most guitar string sets you have the low E and G lowest, the A and B higher, and the D and high E just a bit higher than that. With a wound G the G will need to be pretty high and the B dropped pretty low. The pole piece heights will mimic the intonation of the saddles - strings that need to be set far back will have lower pole pieces and vice versa. I try to look at how high the slugs are in relation to the screws, assuming the rings/guard aren't perfectly parallel to the strings. That lets me decide a very rough middle reference point, so the slugs and screws will be roughly equidistant from the string. For example, if the screw side of the neck pickup is naturally lower than the slug side, I'll have the screws sunken down a bit lower into the cover than usual. - Wash, rinse, repeat if necessary. Very few players will care about the individual string balance*, but my experience is that if you set them carefully the pickup just sounds better even if you're just chopping barre chords. *(The way too high G on a vintage stagger Strat would seem like a great example of great tone and no one caring about string balance, but Strat blues players, a la SRV also use the G for the more dramatic parts of their phrasing, and it might not be completely coincidental. That's another thread, though.)
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Post by justin on Dec 27, 2020 17:16:02 GMT -5
That's a beaut of a guitar and certainly more unique than a sunburst or gold top. I don't have any pics of mine to post but my '84 studio is a sunburst with a not so ordinary red. I like it better than the usual cherry. I have messed with the pole-pieces before. Just set 'em to match the fretboard radius, tried raising them quite a bit once in an attempt to de-muddy them. I didn't like the results and lowered them back down. Sounds good to me though I've never considered the string to string balance notion. Maybe I'll get around to that one day. I'm all enamored with mini-buckers right now... Mini humbuckers you say? This is the redheaded stepchild in my collection. I can’t believe these things were $400 when they came out! The quality and craftsmanship are top notch. The fret ends are spherical. The rosewood is beautiful. I have 2 Indonesian G&Ls and they are both excellent. The Cort factory churns out some amazing and affordable instruments. This guitar is so comfortable to play and it sounds amazing. The stock pups were P90s and I installed these eBay minis. I’m on mobile so let’s see if this works... imgur.com/gallery/vhbiiSmedit to embed photo:
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 363
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Post by sirWheat on Dec 28, 2020 5:22:25 GMT -5
Never seen one of those before, cool! Like a PRS without the (to me) annoying headstock.
I have a set of that style mini in one of my guitars, an old Gibson set. I find them overly trebly and harsh sounding. I have a few different versions of the Firebird-style that I like very much.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 28, 2020 8:57:08 GMT -5
Never seen one of those before, cool! Like a PRS without the (to me) annoying headstock. I hadn't seen those before, but I think the appropriate name should be a GLPR&S.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Dec 28, 2020 8:59:20 GMT -5
For example, if the screw side of the neck pickup is naturally higher than the slug side, I'll have the screws sunken down a bit lower into the cover than usual. Just tried editing this but it wouldn't let me. Should read: "For example, if the screw side of the neck pickup is naturally lower than the slug side, I'll have the screws sunken down a bit lower into the cover than usual.
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Post by Leftee on Dec 28, 2020 9:14:22 GMT -5
Just tried editing this but it wouldn't let me. I fixed it for you. There is a 90 minute time limit for edits.
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Post by Leftee on Dec 28, 2020 9:14:55 GMT -5
Justin,
That G&L is beyond cool!
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Post by justin on Dec 28, 2020 11:05:24 GMT -5
I enjoy playing that G&L. I gutted it and did copper shielding, CTS 500k pots, 3-way switch and cloth push back wiring. I did this at the same time as the mini-humbuckers and the overall result is better (to my ears) than the stock P90s were. The downside is the slim neck, but it only takes a few seconds to get used to it. The neck profile reminds me of an Epiphone Les Paul I had as a kid - I guess that's the 60's neck? It sounds full and a little bright - probably closer to a Tele than an SG. It's my understanding that 60's minis are warmer than the 70's LP Deluxe style and measured around 7.8k. I don't know what guage wire mine are wired with but they each measure 7.9-8.0k depending on where you probe. I suppose that explains why they don't sound thin at all. I've never played with those smooth Freebird stlye pickups. This thing came with an Ascari-GTS truss rod cover, but that was the humbucker model. I doubt I'll ever find the appropriate Ascari-GT90 cover, so I put a blank on there. I just checked Reverb and saw one on sale that has a black back. Mine is transparent and shows the mahogany nicely. Pretty weird stuff G&L... It is indeed sort of a "GLPR&S", except with a 24.75" scale. I used to say it was like a mahogany strat with a carved top and Gibson style everything else, but I guess that more describes PRS. Funny thing is, I kind of want a PRS - never played one. But I played my 5 electric guitars round-robin style yesterday through my only good tube amp these days (AC15 w/blue speaker) and I left the mancave/excercise room very satisfied. Getting PRS would be crazy and completely unnecessary and I should never do that - yeah, that's it. glguitars.com/product/ascari-gt-90/edit: added details
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Post by justin on Jan 22, 2021 16:52:43 GMT -5
My revamped Les Paul is all finished since I started this thread. I swapped out the Graph Tech saddles for the original ones. I filed each slot a little bit with my nut files to remove any burrs and I have not broken a string yet. While I was at it I swapped out the tail piece to an aluminum one. I polished the gunk off of the pickups and bridge to match better. I also switched out the plastics with lighter cream colored ones. The stock ones were pinkish and the pickup rings were deformed. I had to sand the neck ring down and re-shape it to the body curve. The way it sat was at an awkward angle so I had to shave off about 2mm from the headstock end of the ring. I also had a cracked poker chip that I replaced with an Allparts one that is thin and flexible with an adhesive back. It's not following the countours of the body all the way but I'll give it some time and maybe a little heat. I treated the fretboard with about 5 applications of Fret Doctor. It soaked that stuff up like a sponge. It darkened up quite a bit and feels great. That stuff works much better than the D'Addario conditioner I had. All in all a very nice improvemnt but the inlays in the higher frets still look kinda bad for such a "nice" guitar. Some of the filler I mentioned looks to be on top of the inlays so it might be able to be polished or scraped away. You can see it if you zoom in on the photo. It's no beauty queen but it plays and sounds great. Mailman delivered the final touches today. I added reflector knobs. The old ones were cracked and these are reccessed so they sit closer to the body. Lastly I sprayed some Deoxit in the switch and tight scrathchy pots. That loosened things up quite a bit and now my bridge volume pot actually works. It used to go silent when backing down from 10. The combination of the metal saddles and aluminum tailpiece put some much needed zing into the unplugged sound. I set the pickup height by ear and it sounds sweeter than ever. The neck position is no longer muddy and all positions have nice warmth and clarity. This is what I've been missing! My old LP just needed some tweaking and a little TLC. It's a joy to play now. With the new tailpiece the whole thing weighs 8.9 pounds - that's pretty nice if you ask me.
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Post by Pinetree on Jan 22, 2021 17:23:02 GMT -5
Personally not a fan of reflector knobs but very nice indeed.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 22, 2021 18:46:04 GMT -5
I'm glad to hear you're loving it! "warmth and clarity" is exactly what an LP SHOULD sound like, though they often don't.
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Post by justin on Jan 22, 2021 18:55:40 GMT -5
Personally not a fan of reflector knobs but very nice indeed. I'm not actually completely sold on them either. It was kind of a change for the sake of change thing, but one of my speed knobs really was cracked. That's what happens when you're working from home and parts are just a click away. I might change these out (again) to recessed gold tophats or another set of speed knobs. For now, I'm good.
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sirWheat
Wholenote
For a better future, play Stevie Wonder for your children.
Posts: 363
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Post by sirWheat on Jan 23, 2021 7:03:16 GMT -5
Nice, and congrats! It's nice to find new love for an old guitar eh? I don't like that issue with inlays either but that's just how they are more often than not. Gibson usually gets away with it by using (or maybe dying?) very dark fretboards. With an ebony board you can make gaps (even pretty big ones) completely unnoticeable. I love the look of top hat knobs but really, speed knobs are the way to go if you're actually spinning them regularly. Easier to get hold of and turn.
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