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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 18, 2023 18:30:16 GMT -5
is it possible to get more punch out of my amp by turrning up the gain or output on a pedal. My tubes screamer gets more distorted if i turn up the gain or the out put both or independently. thks
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Post by LeftyMeister on Jan 18, 2023 18:36:42 GMT -5
There is a point of diminishing returns with the gain on a pedal. Up to point, it can make your amp more punchy. After that point, it can lose articulation and begin to fizz out.
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Post by Pinetree on Jan 18, 2023 20:13:50 GMT -5
All the cool kids "stack" their overdrive pedals.
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 18, 2023 23:16:40 GMT -5
I'd look into more versatile options, including stacking as Mr. Tree mentioned.
TS does TS, not much else.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Jan 19, 2023 6:49:17 GMT -5
If your use of the term "punch" means you want the guitar to stand out more in the mix: increasing the gain, drive or distortion is not the way to do it. Instead, use EQ to increase the upper mids in relation to the lows and highs. This can be done not just by boosting, but also by cutting. By itself, this sounds a bit tinny because the balance of lows is reduced, making the tone sound a bit anemic. But in a mix, this tone occupies its own space, not having to compete with the bass and drums. This works equally well for clean and dirty tones.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jan 19, 2023 19:24:27 GMT -5
is it possible to get more punch out of my amp by turrning up the gain or output on a pedal… I think it may depend on how you’re using your amp. If it’s already pushing out its maximum power, then increasing gain at any point in the signal chain is unlikely to help. Because more punch, or more anything really, will tend to require more power (or more efficient speakers). Rather it will just make the sound more distorted. From how you describe things, that seems to be where you’re at. Note that an amp will probably reach its maximum power output with volume control settings of somewhat less than full clockwise.
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Post by Lesterstrat on Jan 20, 2023 10:28:28 GMT -5
All the cool kids "stack" their overdrive pedals. Or, stick a booster in the chain. But, I also preferred running two ODs.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 20, 2023 10:32:18 GMT -5
If your use of the term "punch" means you want the guitar to stand out more in the mix: increasing the gain, drive or distortion is not the way to do it. Instead, use EQ to increase the upper mids in relation to the lows and highs. This can be done not just by boosting, but also by cutting. By itself, this sounds a bit tinny because the balance of lows is reduced, making the tone sound a bit anemic. But in a mix, this tone occupies its own space, not having to compete with the bass and drums. This works equally well for clean and dirty tones.
Very, very well described.
I would add that I think this is one of the biggest differences between "vintage" and "modern" tone. Older gear was put through the paces in band settings, newer gear gets taken to a padded room and noodled with, usually not even playing a full song. We get a lot of boutique setups that sound amazing in bedrooms and "fix" the old problems of being too shrill, but don't work as well in a band. A lot of the magic of vintage is little more than a process/development difference.
(Sometimes gear is "designed" entirely a priori and doesn't get real tests until after it is put in production and sold, but that isn't uniquely vintage or modern... we just forget about the vintage stuff where this was done.)
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 20, 2023 11:09:32 GMT -5
is it possible to get more punch out of my amp by turrning up the gain or output on a pedal… I think it may depend on how you’re using your amp. If it’s already pushing out its maximum power, then increasing gain at any point in the signal chain is unlikely to help. Because more punch, or more anything really, will tend to require more power (or more efficient speakers). Rather it will just make the sound more distorted. From how you describe things, that seems to be where you’re at. Note that an amp will probably reach its maximum power output with volume control settings of somewhat less than full clockwise. i usualy run arouond 7 on the volume not full clockwise
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jan 20, 2023 12:22:05 GMT -5
Yes, you’ll almost certainly be overdriving the power amp, even without stomping on the TS. Turning the bass low will help to make the most of the power available. Assuming your amp is running properly (good output valves and power supply caps), the only real option for ‘more’ of anything is more efficient speakers (eg EVM12L), or a twin reverb etc.
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Post by rdr on Jan 20, 2023 16:09:27 GMT -5
What amp are you using?
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 20, 2023 18:14:58 GMT -5
1967 Black face pro reverb
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 20, 2023 18:15:13 GMT -5
Another question is when i push the out put higher on my tube screamer i know it pushes harder on the pre amp tubes but does it also push the power tubes harder thus wearing them out sooner thks
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 20, 2023 18:49:11 GMT -5
1967 Black face pro reverb This reminds me of another thread you had about this rig. You're still using original speakers and original cones, right? I can't imagine that is performing anywhere near optimal right now. Getting that taken care of would probably resolve a bunch of problems. I haven't seen a '60s amp with original speakers that sounded right since the early 2000s, though I'm in the southwest where the dry weather can age those a bit faster, so I might be a bit biased.
Haven't played a Pro Reverb in a while, but if volume at 7 isn't blistering, that might be a sure sign right there that you have speaker problems.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jan 20, 2023 19:44:52 GMT -5
Another question is when i push the out put higher on my tube screamer i know it pushes harder on the pre amp tubes but does it also push the power tubes harder thus wearing them out sooner thks Yes.
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Post by Leftee on Jan 20, 2023 19:49:53 GMT -5
1967 Black face pro reverb This reminds me of another thread you had about this rig. You're still using original speakers and original cones, right? I can't imagine that is performing anywhere near optimal right now. Getting that taken care of would probably resolve a bunch of problems. I haven't seen a '60s amp with original speakers that sounded right since the early 2000s, though I'm in the southwest where the dry weather can age those a bit faster, so I might be a bit biased.
Haven't played a Pro Reverb in a while, but if volume at 7 isn't blistering, that might be a sure sign right there that you have speaker problems.
I agree. For collectibility’s sake I’d pull and store the original speaker and freshen the amp up with a new speaker.
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 20, 2023 20:04:55 GMT -5
Pushing ANY signal hotter will push the power tubes hotter, not just the preamp tubes. You have a fine amount of 'power" - and the more signal it sees, the faster it gets used up as well basically.
"Wear them out more quickly" is relative, and 7 on a tube amp is well into distortion - you're past headroom by far at that point.
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Post by pcalu on Jan 20, 2023 20:36:14 GMT -5
1967 Black face pro reverb This reminds me of another thread you had about this rig. You're still using original speakers and original cones, right? I can't imagine that is performing anywhere near optimal right now. Getting that taken care of would probably resolve a bunch of problems. I haven't seen a '60s amp with original speakers that sounded right since the early 2000s, though I'm in the southwest where the dry weather can age those a bit faster, so I might be a bit biased.
Haven't played a Pro Reverb in a while, but if volume at 7 isn't blistering, that might be a sure sign right there that you have speaker problems.
Oh... man WOW ... As a player who gigs a early silverface pro from time to time... On 7 my amp is close to full saturation... Close to Riding the Bull
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 21, 2023 18:31:18 GMT -5
Pushing ANY signal hotter will push the power tubes hotter, not just the preamp tubes. You have a fine amount of 'power" - and the more signal it sees, the faster it gets used up as well basically. "Wear them out more quickly" is relative, and 7 on a tube amp is well into distortion - you're past headroom by far at that point. SRV and Hendrix as well as many others cranked there amps and had plenty of headroom
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 21, 2023 18:36:21 GMT -5
Pushing ANY signal hotter will push the power tubes hotter, not just the preamp tubes. You have a fine amount of 'power" - and the more signal it sees, the faster it gets used up as well basically. "Wear them out more quickly" is relative, and 7 on a tube amp is well into distortion - you're past headroom by far at that point. SRV and Hendrix as well as many others cranked there amps and had plenty of headroom Wrong. Neither was anywhere NEAR clean the vast majority of the time.
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pdf64
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Post by pdf64 on Jan 21, 2023 18:53:20 GMT -5
Turn the amp up until you get the desired degree of overdrive. Then for clean, turn the guitar down until it cleans up. Turn back up and hit the booster pedal for heavy overdrive. Get the amp checked over if it isn’t sounding right and swapping in good valves doesn’t fix it.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 21, 2023 19:25:58 GMT -5
SRV and Hendrix as well as many others cranked there amps and had plenty of headroom Wrong. Neither was anywhere NEAR clean the vast majority of the time. SRV Lenny and Ten pan ally and many more and also Hendrix at woodstock turns off the fuzz. near the end
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 21, 2023 19:28:46 GMT -5
Turn the amp amp until you get the desired degree of overdrive. Then for clean, turn the guitar down until it cleans up. Turn back up and hit the booster pedal for heavy overdrive. Get the amp checked over if it isn’t sounding right and swapping in good valves doesn’t fix it. it sounds great strait in. i might have found the issue my darn tunner battery was down to 6v. ill know more tomorrow I do use a attenuator so im not real loud the clubs make me control the volume now days
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 22, 2023 6:34:15 GMT -5
Wrong. Neither was anywhere NEAR clean the vast majority of the time. SRV Lenny and Ten pan ally and many more and also Hendrix at woodstock turns off the fuzz. near the end Any tube amp at 7+ on the dial isn't clean any more. That's the nature of the beast. They're still well into overdrive. Clean is Jazz Chorus with next to no THD.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 22, 2023 11:09:42 GMT -5
SRV Lenny and Ten pan ally and many more and also Hendrix at woodstock turns off the fuzz. near the end Any tube amp at 7+ on the dial isn't clean any more. That's the nature of the beast. They're still well into overdrive. Clean is Jazz Chorus with next to no THD. its pretty clean when you dial the guitar's volume down
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 22, 2023 18:30:05 GMT -5
"Pretty clean" is still overdriven.
Same with speaker distortion.
Hendrix stage volume was massive to put it mildly.
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Post by cedarchoper58 on Jan 22, 2023 18:47:04 GMT -5
"Pretty clean" is still overdriven. Same with speaker distortion. Hendrix stage volume was massive to put it mildly. very true technicaaly but he did not run full out on his guitar volumes you can see it on videos. One is Hey Baby at Berkley and also at woodstock either jam back at the house or Violla juncion he turns the fuzz off. i run my amps hard and yes they are full of gain but when i turn my guitar volume down 1-2 notches it gets acusticaly clean
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 22, 2023 19:05:43 GMT -5
I'm familiar with BF and SF era Fenders - they're not clean at any of those stage volumes "acoustically" or otherwise.
The Plexis aren't either.
There's a TON of THD going on.
On this, you're wrong, pure and simple.
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Post by funkykikuchiyo on Jan 22, 2023 19:10:41 GMT -5
Bear in mind that the whole band was likely much quieter during those parts as well. The guitar sounds cleaner, but the bass is also softer, the drums are more sparse and not hitting as hard, maybe even using brushes. If all we have are recordings then the compression is going to make it sound like the ballads are the same volume as the really loud songs. On something like the Live at the El Mocambo video, that is going to be REALLY compressed, especially if (like me) you remember mostly the VHS version.
My advice before I bow out: figure out what is going to work for you, and deal with problems as they arise. You've done enough drawing from the well about what the heroes did, and it is time to leave it behind and just deal with things practically. After all, the heroes were just trying to work through stuff practically, too. Them looking to their own influences was definitely a thing, but it wasn't 100% of their thinking. Sometimes you just have to fix something that is broken.
And, really, if you're just dealing with original speakers, nothing is going to go as planned. After all - didn't SRV swap out speakers a lot? Hendrix didn't live long enough past the manufacture date of anything he was using for it to matter.
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Post by reverendrob on Jan 22, 2023 19:19:34 GMT -5
Hendrix (and to a lesser degree SRV as well) dealt with dismal PAs - where the amps had to deliver to the front of house, no matter how big it was.
It wasn't "PA everything" like now either.
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