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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 14, 2020 13:30:12 GMT -5
The term gets tossed about kinda carelessly. Just wondering who your idea of a musical genius from our time is. I would think Frank Zappa and Stevie Wonder. While I have to admire Paul McCartny's longevity and songwriting skills I am kinda iffy on including him. What say you?
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Post by willie on Feb 14, 2020 13:45:21 GMT -5
I think you have to break that down into smaller categories as there is genius in so many areas of music, e.g...Writers and composers, instrumentalists, vocalists, and so on. Just as there is no such thing as the "best guitar player" or "best singer", the parameters of musical genius are just as subjective.
w
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Feb 14, 2020 13:55:57 GMT -5
I'm far from an expert on classical music but I would say Beethoven. His Piano Concerto No. 5 is a mind-blowing mix of technical proficiency and simplistic melodies. Mixed into those mad skills of his was a pop writer.
When I try to conjure up opinion about contemporary musicians in pop, rock, etc., I can't get past subjectivity. I have favorites that I'd call genius, but their names may coincide with someone else's hate list.
Edited to add: I missed the "from our time" stipulation. Carry on.
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Post by NoSoapRadio on Feb 14, 2020 17:07:21 GMT -5
"His Piano Concerto No. 5 is a mind-blowing mix of technical proficiency and simplistic melodies."
Not bad for a deaf guy.
I'll second Frank Zappa -- and also second not including Sir Paulie.
I'd add Coltrane and Miles.
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Post by jazzguy on Feb 14, 2020 17:22:23 GMT -5
In the pop world I'll agree w/Stevie Wonder, at least he's as close as they get otherwise: Louis Armstrong Charlie Parker Duke Ellington Miles Trane Monk
hmm, there's a pattern here
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Ayns
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Posts: 767
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Post by Ayns on Feb 14, 2020 17:32:00 GMT -5
I agree that "genius" is a subjective and over used term.
The singer/ songwriter from my last "originals" band is the nearest I've come in 40 years of playing to a musical genius. He could write more great songs in a week than I have in a lifetime, he wrote great lyrics and unbelievably catchy melodies, and could write a song "live" in front of you, in as long as it took him to play it. He could also write mediocre stuff, and sometimes "wrote" the same song several times without realising it. He also couldn't tell a "great" song from a "mediocre" one as they were all just "songs" to him. I honestly think that if there was any justice in the music industry, he would be sitting on a beach somewhere counting his millions, but........ He,s pretty much penniless, has major alcohol related issues and has always turned his back every time "success" became a possibility :-(
In the contemporary music category, I would consider Lennon and McCartney to be geniuses, along with Jimmy Page, Neil Young, Alex/Geddy, Freddie and a few more. I don't consider most widdly widdly guitarists to be geniuses ;-)
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Post by FlyonNylon on Feb 14, 2020 17:39:49 GMT -5
I think the caveat "in our times" needs a clarification. If it means, "present day" then my answer would be, "no one."
I absolutely love Chopin, Schubert, Mendelssohn and the rest of the romantics but Beethoven towers so far above them that he started and also ruined the romantic movement through his genius a half century before it really even began, resulting in the dissonance of post-modernism in serious music. Basically he was such a genius that over the next century other artists, who were at the top of their field, would go mad because they knew nothing they ever did would even come close.. Everyone just decided, "well we'll never duplicate Beethoven and now it's WW1 so we might as well just burn the whole thing down."
That's genius.
In terms of 20th century guitar: Andres Segovia and Jimi Hendrix could get a mention. Collectively Pink Floyd's "The Wall" could get a mention. But the more you go down that road it's just "That's a great album" rather than some overarching figure who transcends the field.
In the grand scheme of music as art, rather than storytelling or profit, I would not put anyone from the 20th century anywhere close to any of the classical masters. The only composer I feel who would approach Beethoven is J.S Bach.
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Post by digiboy on Feb 14, 2020 18:25:29 GMT -5
Rickyguitar (OP) mentioned being dubious about Sir Paul. I'd include him along with Stevie Wonder and Zappa.
I think Jimi Hendrix was about to hit "genius" level. Had he lived longer, he was headed for some really amazing musical creations.
Moving away from pop/rock: Theloniuos Monk George Gershwin
Delving further into classical. I'm in complete awe of many of the great classical composers.
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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 14, 2020 18:29:17 GMT -5
A valid point about categories but I am not sure technical skill equals genius. I think Jeff Beck is wonderfully skilled, Hendrix too. Genius? Not so sure. Is Yo Yo Ma a genius? Highly skilled tech no doubt. 20th century genius? I think Charles Ives is a def. Zappa in same context. Highly innovative. The reason I say Stevie Wonder is due to the range of style, the creative instrumental passages, not just a pop songwriter. Gershwin? Not sure. Seems like an early iteration of Paul. Interesting conversation.
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Post by garyweimer on Feb 14, 2020 19:33:50 GMT -5
Musical genius can be really subjective, if you don't put some guidelines on it.
For me, in my time, the people that I would consider musical geniuses are: James Jamerson (including the Funk Brothers) Jack Bruce (given the territory he covered in his solo career) Jimi Hendrix Robert Fripp Prince David Bowie Peter Gabriel Brian Setzer (based on his knowledge of music and how he has revived genres) Chris Squire (and Yes)
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Post by saltyseadog on Feb 15, 2020 6:55:45 GMT -5
Surprised that no one has mentioned Ray Charles who was actually nicknamed the Genius. I would also add Prince to the list even though I am not a big fan of his, I can't deny the guy was an extraordinary talent though.
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Post by LM on Feb 15, 2020 7:06:30 GMT -5
Kerry Livgren of Kansas was a musical savant and as good as there was as a technical guitar player. The guy wrote Carry On My Wayward Son overnight as an album filler and taught it to the band the next morning.
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Post by HenryJ on Feb 15, 2020 7:38:43 GMT -5
Beethoven for sure.
IMHO, Beethoven's 9th Symphony is the greatest work of art there is, including not only music, but also the visual arts, literature, drama, comedy, and so on.
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Post by Opie on Feb 15, 2020 7:50:12 GMT -5
Tom Waits in general. Charlie Hunter for doing what he does.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Feb 15, 2020 8:20:31 GMT -5
If one applies the textbook definition of the term (a genius is a person that displays exceptional intellectual ability, creative productivity, originality or universality across genres, typically to a degree that is associated with the achievement of new advances within a domain of knowledge), there are far too many to list.
But Shawn Lane comes to mind.
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Post by dogspart2 on Feb 15, 2020 10:01:47 GMT -5
In my book:
Aaron Copeland Miles Monk
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Post by garyweimer on Feb 15, 2020 11:35:34 GMT -5
I should probably add Todd Rundgren.
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Post by Duke on Feb 15, 2020 13:34:07 GMT -5
Jimmy Reed
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Post by modbus on Feb 15, 2020 13:43:42 GMT -5
I know this is going to sound silly, but Weird Al Yankovic. The dude can come up with a clever, entertaining parody for just about any song in any genre. And, he's been doing it for decades.
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Post by Leftee on Feb 15, 2020 14:51:59 GMT -5
Todd Rundgren - at least in my book.
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Davywhizz
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"Still Alive and Well"
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Post by Davywhizz on Feb 15, 2020 16:49:20 GMT -5
My votes go to (in no particular order): Frank Zappa, Jeff Beck, John Mclaughlin, Jaco Pastorius, Johnny Winter, Walter and Donald, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, David Bowie...
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Post by saltyseadog on Feb 16, 2020 4:18:18 GMT -5
My votes go to (in no particular order): Frank Zappa, Jeff Beck, John Mclaughlin, Jaco Pastorius, Johnny Winter, Walter and Donald, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, David Bowie... Perfect proof that the word genius is very misused in modern times. No doubt that all your mentions are excellent talented musicians but geniuses really?. I can see a case for Frank Zappa and Stevie Wonder but the rest are virtuosos at best.
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Post by hushnel on Feb 17, 2020 14:46:31 GMT -5
It’s difficult to quantify musical genius. When I look at the catalog of works I’d like to say Chet Atkins, Willie Nelson, Les Paul, Dave Brubeck, George and Ira Gershwin, Brian Wilson, etc. I’m looking at proliferation, and diversity. There is a lot of technical genius at the instrument level, but “music” is a bigger thing than technical skill.
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Post by LM on Feb 17, 2020 15:03:43 GMT -5
What about producers? George Martin, Jeff Lynne, Berry Gordy, Brian Wilson, Phil Spector, Quincy Jones, and Alan Parsons come to mind as being above the heap.
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Post by rickyguitar on Feb 17, 2020 15:40:10 GMT -5
Genius def transcends technical skill. It seems to me it is more a case of being able to see outside the box, or a broader horizon than one's contemporaries. I also think it tends to be represented by a prolific body of work. Also, it seems as if oft times these people are almost like a faucet, a tap that creativity just flows from. Mozart composing at age 7, no one can be schooled to that in 7 years, Zappa's compositions as a high school student with no real musical training and, what 60 albums or something in his career. Ives developing compound time signatures and harmonic devices like cluster chords. Stevie...holy cow. Such a wide range of sounds and styles in his instrumental passages. It's like these people are a faucet the universe uses to dump art on us. Producers? Heck yeah, them too. George Martin, wowzers. We all have our favs, it just amazes me what some people are capable of...oops..life calls. Gotta go.
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Post by garyweimer on Feb 17, 2020 15:41:13 GMT -5
What about producers? George Martin, Jeff Lynne, Berry Gordy, Brian Wilson, Phil Spector, Quincy Jones, and Alan Parsons come to mind as being above the heap. Again on Todd Rundgren - one listen to Faithful should convince you. I'dd add Felix Pappalardi and Jimmy Page. More current names could include Danger Mouse.
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Post by LM on Feb 17, 2020 15:58:25 GMT -5
I meant to list Page. I knew I was forgetting someone.
I was never a big Rundgren fan so I'm not familiar with his producing credits. I only know his one song 'Hello It's Me'.
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Post by jazzguy on Feb 17, 2020 16:00:20 GMT -5
My votes go to (in no particular order): Frank Zappa, Jeff Beck, John Mclaughlin, Jaco Pastorius, Johnny Winter, Walter and Donald, Stevie Wonder, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, David Bowie... Perfect proof that the word genius is very misused in modern times. No doubt that all your mentions are excellent talented musicians but geniuses really?. I can see a case for Frank Zappa and Stevie Wonder but the rest are virtuosos at best. agreed, the term is way over used imo.
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Post by Taildragger on Feb 17, 2020 16:17:46 GMT -5
•Ludwig Van Beethoven
•Frédéric Chopin
•Sergei Rachmaninoff
•Igor Stravinski
•Sergei Prokofiev
•Count Basie
•Robert Johnson
•Little Walter Jacobs
•Frank Zappa
•Jeff Beck
•Jimi Hendrix
are a few that come to mind.
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Post by garyweimer on Feb 17, 2020 17:01:10 GMT -5
I meant to list Page. I knew I was forgetting someone. I was never a big Rundgren fan so I'm not familiar with his producing credits. I only know his one song 'Hello It's Me'. There's a reason he titled this album "Faithful" His production credits are all over the place, and start as far back as James Cotton, along with Ian & Sylvia. Todd's Production credits
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