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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 25, 2021 19:06:36 GMT -5
I think it should be a different thread Yes indeed, it should. My response here was simply a response to a post here.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Feb 25, 2021 19:08:06 GMT -5
I'd love to give it a go but I don't think it's fair to Mike to ask him to referee a mess like that. It's only a mess if we fail to stick to discussing the law and the Constitution Edited to add: I would likely learn a lot from a discussion on the topic.
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Post by Larry Madsen on May 26, 2021 20:08:56 GMT -5
And one more coming up, adding to the list.
"Texas Is Just A Step Away From Constitutional Carry"
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Post by hushnel on May 28, 2021 13:09:03 GMT -5
Somehow I missed this thread the first time around. Really well done boss and participants.
We had a few really bad days just after Hurricane Andrew blasted right down the middle of my street in Homestead Florida. We had 20 minutes of calm as the eye passed. Those first 2 or 3 days we were on our own. A lot of looting and other bad guy crimes were going on. A crazy thing, my land line still worked.
We formed our own (semi-organized) armed militia, a better word than mob, we maintained an obvious presence for those 48 or so hours until the Military showed up. We didn’t man road blocks in our neighbor hood but we were obviously armed and present until they did. We were not aggressive or even had any situations. Local Leo’s supported us. A few of us patrolled those first two nights as well, until the APs set up road blocks and provided security. Kind of made the neighbor hood tighter, disaster always does. We agreed to not carry rifles though a few did cary shotguns during the dark hours, mostly for the visual.
I read the legal constitutional papers linked in the thread, that’s the most I’ve ever read, kind of wordy, but I got gists.
One thing I’ve noticed in my 68 years is language evolves too, leaving more room for interpretation a few hundred years down the road.
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BigBadJohn
Wholenote
I Lurk, therefore I am.
Posts: 222
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Post by BigBadJohn on Mar 22, 2022 6:27:48 GMT -5
Indiana has just become #24 for constitutional carry.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 22, 2022 6:58:45 GMT -5
Allow me to offer a counterpoint. While it is true that SCOTUS has a history of allowing the states to ignore the Bill of Rights, that changed with the Fourteenth Amendment which obligated the states to recognize the protections contained therein. The 2A was finally ruled to be protected under the 14A in 2010 (McDonald v. City of Chicago) and specifically stated that firearm ownership *is* an absolute right and cannot be restricted by the states without due process. The only reason I can't walk into my LGS and buy an AR15 is the SCOTUS has not yet agreed to hear the many challenges to the state's restrictions. It's just a matter of time.
You don’t irk me, relying on the Constitution to support one position and then ignoring it on another does. The fact that the Supreme Court has not heard any cases seeking to invalidate State laws since McDonald is 100% within their purview, which is given to them by, that’s right, the Constitution. Will it eventually happen? Maybe. But it certainly hasn’t been decided that way yet, and they are the only ones who can decide what is unconstitutional. Personally, I think 2A is horribly written and it needs Amendment either way. Make it clear either way. A lot of people argue it is, but if it was, there wouldn’t be such a debate about it. I would argue that the debate isn't driven by a poorly written 2A, it's driven by people who want to interpret it differently because it doesn't fit what they want. Basically a case of "don't confuse me with the facts, I've already made up my mind".
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 22, 2022 7:06:20 GMT -5
It’s not, really. How many of you are part of a State militia? They don’t exist anymore. I am. You are. In the context of the 2A, "Militia" was understood to be any adult male citizen (although ladies were not specifically excluded) who was not part of the standing army, and who was willing and able to help defend the Constitution. Yup. My guns exist for two reasons: protect my family, protect my country.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 22, 2022 7:21:14 GMT -5
I would argue that time is the enemy of the original meaning. Many generations of interpretation of that original meaning tend to dilute it and make further, gradual, incremental deviation more likely. Absolutely. But I believe it could be spelled out in such a manner that it would be clear, one way or the other. Doesn’t matter which side you fall on, even if you think the original version is clear, many, many years of debate about what it means says otherwise. Googling, I find that debate over the 2A first came to the supreme court in 1939. That means we had almost 150 years without debate. So it's meaning was clear for all that time, then suddenly it wasn't?
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Post by LeftyMeister on Mar 22, 2022 7:55:39 GMT -5
Somehow I missed this thread the first time around. Ditto! I've perused the thread and two comments: * Ohio recently became a constitutional carry state and CCW permits are now optional. * There's a distinction between concealed carry and open carry. Ohio was an open carry state but concealed carry permits were still required (figure that one out). That all went away with the new law. Now, permits are a requirement only to carry in another state as an Ohio resident.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 22, 2022 7:57:21 GMT -5
Absolutely. But I believe it could be spelled out in such a manner that it would be clear, one way or the other. Doesn’t matter which side you fall on, even if you think the original version is clear, many, many years of debate about what it means says otherwise. Googling, I find that debate over the 2A first came to the supreme court in 1939. That means we had almost 150 years without debate. So it's meaning was clear for all that time, then suddenly it wasn't? You’re assuming that if a case didn’t make it all the way through the entire process requires to get to the Supreme Court, it means there was no debate. I don’t know if they did or if they didn’t, but it could equally be true that people did question its interpretation and the Supreme Court didn’t choose to review it.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 22, 2022 8:01:38 GMT -5
Googling, I find that debate over the 2A first came to the supreme court in 1939. That means we had almost 150 years without debate. So it's meaning was clear for all that time, then suddenly it wasn't? You’re assuming that if a case didn’t make it all the way through the entire process requires to get to the Supreme Court, it means there was no debate. I don’t know if they did or if they didn’t, but it could equally be true that people did question its interpretation and the Supreme Court didn’t choose to review it. I could be true, but I don't think there was much, if any debate, for the first 100 years at least. I don't imagine people gave it much thought. I think it was when some folks wanted to start taking away guns that the debate ensued. I'm not a historical expert by any means...so maybe some else can enlighten us further?
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Post by rok-a-bill-e on Mar 22, 2022 8:36:33 GMT -5
I wonder about the reality of movie Westerns where cowboys were required to check their guns with the sheriff when they came into town? Was that a Hollywood fiction or an actual practice? Of course, the practice of cowboys wearing guns all of the time was probably a Hollywood fiction, too.
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BigBadJohn
Wholenote
I Lurk, therefore I am.
Posts: 222
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Post by BigBadJohn on Mar 22, 2022 8:49:46 GMT -5
Somehow I missed this thread the first time around. Ditto! I've perused the thread and two comments: * Ohio recently became a constitutional carry state and CCW permits are now optional. * There's a distinction between concealed carry and open carry. Ohio was an open carry state but concealed carry permits were still required (figure that one out). That all went away with the new law. Now, permits are requirement only to carry in another state as an Ohio resident. At least Indiana was consistant because it required to have the permit to carry concealed or open. Called an LTCH (License To Carry a Handgun).
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 22, 2022 9:09:51 GMT -5
I wonder about the reality of movie Westerns where cowboys were required to check their guns with the sheriff when they came into town? Was that a Hollywood fiction or an actual practice? Of course, the practice of cowboys wearing guns all of the time was probably a Hollywood fiction, too. I would like to believe that being a cowboy was exactly as depicted in movies, but I imagine the reality was way more boring and that they were always dirty. So I think your speculation is probably correct.
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Post by K4 on Mar 22, 2022 9:44:56 GMT -5
I wonder about the reality of movie Westerns where cowboys were required to check their guns with the sheriff when they came into town? Was that a Hollywood fiction or an actual practice? Of course, the practice of cowboys wearing guns all of the time was probably a Hollywood fiction, too. I would like to believe that being a cowboy was exactly as depicted in movies, but I imagine the reality was way more boring and that they were always dirty. So I think your speculation is probably correct. Most would have carried a firearm. Mostly for protection against snakes, bears ect...
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 22, 2022 10:01:53 GMT -5
I would like to believe that being a cowboy was exactly as depicted in movies, but I imagine the reality was way more boring and that they were always dirty. So I think your speculation is probably correct. Most would have carried a firearm. Mostly for protection against snakes, bears ect... Plus otherwise they would have had to do that twirly trigger spinning and holstering thing with a banana, which would be less cool.
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Grizbear-NJ
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Post by Grizbear-NJ on Mar 22, 2022 10:05:12 GMT -5
Good Commentary on the subject; some advice to all. If you are traveling; for what ever reason, whether by air, land, or sea. Make sure you check out the Laws of the States you will be in, or traveling thru. If you have any "paperwork" for the firearms in your possession; keep the original paperwork safe at HOME and carry multiple copies with you. You might very well save yourself some aggravation if a situation develops.
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Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 22, 2022 10:29:09 GMT -5
I would like to believe that being a cowboy was exactly as depicted in movies, but I imagine the reality was way more boring and that they were always dirty. So I think your speculation is probably correct. Most would have carried a firearm. Mostly for protection against snakes, bears ect... One thing I have always kept in mind regarding "The Old West" is this. From about (say) 1830 on through the remainder of the 19th century, while Americans were moving and expanding society into the West; the vast majority of the West had no established or enforceable law. My take is folks moving around in that environment were truly on their own. One's very life and safety was likely dependent on one's ability to meet force with force ... talking deadly force. I'm betting people carrying firearms was very, very common
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 22, 2022 10:48:16 GMT -5
Most would have carried a firearm. Mostly for protection against snakes, bears ect... Plus otherwise they would have had to do that twirly trigger spinning and holstering thing with a banana, which would be less cool. Or a small tin cup.
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Mar 22, 2022 12:04:45 GMT -5
And I’m going to give a serious look at getting a MA nonres since we are so close and are apt to run down on a regular basis - and her in laws are all in MA. So you don't get along with the in-laws then?
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Post by Peegoo 🏁 on Mar 22, 2022 12:09:14 GMT -5
I wonder about the reality of movie Westerns where cowboys were required to check their guns with the sheriff when they came into town? Was that a Hollywood fiction or an actual practice? Of course, the practice of cowboys wearing guns all of the time was probably a Hollywood fiction, too. Some towns did indeed have a 'no carry guns' policy--just like a 'no alcohol' policy.
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Post by NoSoapRadio on Mar 22, 2022 12:17:52 GMT -5
the vast majority of the West had no established or enforceable law. We've come so far -- oh, wait.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 22, 2022 12:19:38 GMT -5
I wonder about the reality of movie Westerns where cowboys were required to check their guns with the sheriff when they came into town? Was that a Hollywood fiction or an actual practice? Of course, the practice of cowboys wearing guns all of the time was probably a Hollywood fiction, too. Some towns did indeed have a 'no carry guns' policy--just like a 'no alcohol' policy. I prefer to think it was all HBO’s Deadwood all the time.
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 22, 2022 12:46:13 GMT -5
My horse and my gun...don't touch neither! Or my wife. Or kids. Well, or me.
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Post by LeftyMeister on Mar 22, 2022 17:54:14 GMT -5
If you are traveling; for what ever reason, whether by air, land, or sea. Make sure you check out the Laws of the States you will be in, or traveling thru. There's a good phone app for that called Legal Heat.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 22, 2022 18:20:59 GMT -5
If you are traveling; for what ever reason, whether by air, land, or sea. Make sure you check out the Laws of the States you will be in, or traveling thru. There's a good phone app for that called Legal Heat. I hope whomever has the responsibility for keeping that database up to date does constant research and has a great insurance policy.
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Post by K4 on Mar 22, 2022 19:25:02 GMT -5
I hope whomever has the responsibility for keeping that database up to date does constant research and has a great insurance policy. Everytime I check a CC web site there is a disclaimer saying they might not be correct. USCCA is a good resource.
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Ragpicker
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Post by Ragpicker on Mar 22, 2022 22:29:52 GMT -5
Arizona is constitutional carry but I have my CCW card in addition. It allows for carrying a few places that CC doesnt. It also helps an officer know he is dealing with someone that has done the FBI check and is probably not a threat. What we really need is national reciprocity.
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Post by LeftyMeister on Mar 23, 2022 7:08:31 GMT -5
What we really need is national reciprocity. Yep!
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 23, 2022 7:50:18 GMT -5
What we really need is national reciprocity. From an outside persepctive, you have a National document stating people have the right to bear arms, and then the government saying "we leave it up to 50 other mini governments to figure this crap out for themselves". It would seem, whatever position is taken, there should be one position and it should be universal throughout all of the 50 states, since it's all supposed to be based on that one National document. That's just common sense to me.
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