BigBadJohn
Wholenote
I Lurk, therefore I am.
Posts: 222
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Post by BigBadJohn on Mar 24, 2022 15:23:55 GMT -5
Wow, usually I kill threads. Started this baby back up at #124.
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Post by rok-a-bill-e on Mar 24, 2022 15:28:18 GMT -5
"Well Regulated" meant well trained. So, did/does this only apply to the Militia or to all armed citizens, and---is there really any difference? The existing Militia law--- U.S. Code ----- has both sex and age discriminations which should be removed, imo, and some disturbing language about who "may be excused from militia duty", which implies that militia service is not voluntary, which I had always assumed to be the case.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 24, 2022 15:51:30 GMT -5
Do you have a case that says this? I can only think of the Heller decision and that basically says a State or City cannot require a permit. "" U.S. Supreme Court on June 26, 2008, held (5–4) that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess firearms independent of service in a state militia and to use firearms for traditionally lawful purposes, including self-defense within the home."" No, I don’t practice Constitutional law so I don’t have any precedent. It’s just obvious; states are required to have permit laws and they haven’t been struck down as unconstitutional. The Supreme Court, in ruling that same can be handled at the State level, holds it to be Constitutional. Again, whether right or wrong, which I’m not debating. In that context, it should read "allowed", not required. Although, it is actually true. States are required to have their own permit laws; if a state chooses to have "Constitutional" carry with no permit required, that's their permit law. Those rules have to be made at the State level.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 25, 2022 10:20:39 GMT -5
I don’t think so, and that would be one of my main gripes about it. Basic training is something I think anyone who owns a gun should have. I think most people would take that training in some form, but there’s plenty of people that would not of it isn’t required. I agree....my instructor was ex law enforcement and ex military. His attention to detail was extraordinary.....one of the things he said that really stuck with me was "if you intend to draw your weapon with the intent to use it, you'd better make damn sure your life is in danger or a lawyer will eat you up in court"..
when you work your butt off all of your life to enjoy retirement, the last thing you'd want to do is blow it, because you made a spur of the moment decision...
the only time I carry is when my wife and I go on a walk.....its the one time I feel most vulnerable....
I sincerely hope those in these concealed carry states realize the responsibility involved..... So far Florida hasn't gone this route
I took a concealed carry class. I've had a permit for 6 years but have never carried. I'm not willing to accept the responsibility of carrying. I can imagine too many situations where it would be unclear if I was in mortal danger or not until it's too late. Personally, I think proficiency and safety training should be required to own a gun, and legal/responsibility training required to carry. I'm not a gun law advocate as a general rule, but when the 2A was written, I think firearms training and experience was the norm. There are too many people who just don't appreciate the responsibility of owning and carrying a gun. Many don't understand simple safety rules. I would make it such that before you buy your first gun, the dealer from which you purchase needs to give you gun safety training and basic proficiency training on how it's handled, how to aim, etc. From that you get card so that you don't have to go through it with subsequent purchases. It would have different "qualifications": lever action, bolt action, semi auto etc for rifles, revolver, pistol, etc for handguns, and similar for shotguns. If you buy a style you're not checked off on, the seller has to run through how you safely use that new format.
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Post by NoSoapRadio on Mar 25, 2022 13:45:30 GMT -5
I'm not a gun law advocate as a general rule, but when the 2A was written, I think firearms training and experience was the norm. There are too many people who just don't appreciate the responsibility of owning and carrying a gun. Many don't understand simple safety rules. I would make it such that before you buy your first gun, the dealer from which you purchase needs to give you gun safety training and basic proficiency training on how it's handled, how to aim, etc. From that you get card so that you don't have to go through it with subsequent purchases. I respectfully disagree. While it's true that people had training when the 2A was conceived, it was from a family member -- a dad, a granddad, an older brother, not any entity controlled by the state. The 2A was included in the Bill of Rights to protect us from the state. All my kids took their turns going to the range with me well before they were old enough to buy a firearm on their own. I taught them respect for the tool, how to operate it safely, and how to hit what they were aiming at. They will never need any additional training unless they go into LE or the military. They all have guns in their homes and there has never been an accident. When I went to grade school we were offered classes that taught marksmanship with a rifle. How about going back to that? Or better yet, just teach personal responsibility.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 25, 2022 14:17:55 GMT -5
I'm not a gun law advocate as a general rule, but when the 2A was written, I think firearms training and experience was the norm. There are too many people who just don't appreciate the responsibility of owning and carrying a gun. Many don't understand simple safety rules. I would make it such that before you buy your first gun, the dealer from which you purchase needs to give you gun safety training and basic proficiency training on how it's handled, how to aim, etc. From that you get card so that you don't have to go through it with subsequent purchases. I respectfully disagree. While it's true that people had training when the 2A was conceived, it was from a family member -- a dad, a granddad, an older brother, not any entity controlled by the state. The 2A was included in the Bill of Rights to protect us from the state. All my kids took their turns going to the range with me well before they were old enough to buy a firearm on their own. I taught them respect for the tool, how to operate it safely, and how to hit what they were aiming at. They will never need any additional training unless they go into LE or the military. They all have guns in their homes and there has never been an accident. When I went to grade school we were offered classes that taught marksmanship with a rifle. How about going back to that? Or better yet, just teach personal responsibility. I agree with you completely regarding "back in the day". My dad taught me gun safety and how to handle and shoot pump shotguns, revolvers, and a lever action rifle. The first time I handled a semi-auto, I was pretty intimidated. My kids (all adults now) have all been taught gun safety even though only my oldest is interested in shooting and owns guns. My wife's brothers all shot trap in gym class when they were in high school. They rode to school on the bus carrying a shotgun in a case. They put it into their locker at school. A clear indication that the problems we see now are not gun availability, but psychological issues in society. That being said, I'd be fine with gun handling being taught in school, but in today's world....no freakin' way would that fly. The problem is that we have many people who were never taught how to safely handle a gun, much less how to use it in a reasonably proficient manner, out there buying, shooting and, potentially, carrying a gun. If their parents didn't teach them, and they don't learn it in school, where do they learn that? I saw a video a couple days ago of two guys who looked to be in their early 20's at a shooting range carelessly handling a pistol and taking selfies with it. Then one holds it up to the other's head to take a picture of that and the RO steps in, shuts them down, and escorts them out of the range. They had no clue what they were doing yet there's little, if anything, stopping them from buying a gun and doing the same thing in public. I'm not a fan of "the state" or the government at all, acting as a gate keeper. I do. not. want. that. I'd just like to see some way to ensure someone who owns or carries a gun has a clue what the heck they're doing. I'm not proposing you have to pass a test or demonstrate proficiency, just that you've been taught and maybe had a chance to handle and shoot with some supervision. It's a tough call, but I'd be fine putting the onus on the sellers....at least for a 20 minute gun safety and here's how this specific gun works.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 25, 2022 14:44:32 GMT -5
When I did my CC class we spent a great deal of time on the penal codes, legal ramifications, etc. I can see how many subscribing to the constitution carry will be unaware of the specifics and find themselves in hot water for violating these codes through their own negligence. Code 30.06 (I find the designation kinda funny) specifies no concealed carry on premises, regardless of licensing. It's all over the place. Any cc holder discovered to be violating that posting is subject to a trespassing violation. I've been told the penalty is even more severe for the unlicensed, but haven't verified that since it's not applicable to me.
Logic dictates that Texans (and probably everywhere else constitutional carry applies) who constitutional carry without any form of self training will likely be the ones most often violating penal codes. Not sure how I feel about that.
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BigBadJohn
Wholenote
I Lurk, therefore I am.
Posts: 222
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Post by BigBadJohn on Mar 25, 2022 15:11:18 GMT -5
When I did my CC class we spent a great deal of time on the penal codes, legal ramifications, etc. I can see how many subscribing to the constitution carry will be unaware of the specifics and find themselves in hot water for violating these codes through their own negligence. Code 30.06 (I find the designation kinda funny) specifies no concealed carry on premises, regardless of licensing. It's all over the place. Any cc holder discovered to be violating that posting is subject to a trespassing violation. I've been told the penalty is even more severe for the unlicensed, but haven't verified that since it's not applicable to me. Logic dictates that Texans (and probably everywhere else constitutional carry applies) who constitutional carry without any form of self training will likely be the ones most often violating penal codes. Not sure how I feel about that. One example of this is that in IN just pointing a gun at someone is a crime. If you find yourself in a situation where you have to draw your weapon in self defense and the other guy flees (without you firing a shot) he could go to the police and say that you pointed a gun at him thus putting you in hot water. I guess in that situation, after the guy runs away, you should call 911 and tell them what happened and wait for the police so you can get your side of the story documented first.
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Post by NoSoapRadio on Mar 25, 2022 15:30:08 GMT -5
It's a tough call, but I'd be fine putting the onus on the sellers....at least for a 20 minute gun safety and here's how this specific gun works. Did the guy who sold you your last SUV give you a lesson on how to drive it without causing mayhem? More people are killed by cars than guns. Did the guy at Lowes teach you how to use the chainsaw you just bought? You could easily kill or maim yourself or your next door neighbor if you operate it negligently. As gun owners we need to stop playing into the traps laid by those who want to take our guns. Gun dealers already work on very low margins -- they simply can't absorb the cost and liability for assuming the responsibility for the failures of our society. If something bad happens with a gun the onus is on the person who pulled the trigger. Of course there could be rare exceptions, but the person who sold the firearm is at the bottom of the list.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 25, 2022 15:39:45 GMT -5
One example of this is that in IN just pointing a gun at someone is a crime. If you find yourself in a situation where you have to draw your weapon in self defense and the other guy flees (without you firing a shot) he could go to the police and say that you pointed a gun at him thus putting you in hot water. I guess in that situation, after the guy runs away, you should call 911 and tell them what happened and wait for the police so you can get your side of the story documented first. I believe that technically this same rule applies in Michigan. Years ago a friend drew on a guy who was threatening people with a knife in a parking lot of a grocery store. He chased a couple with an infant to their car and was beating on their windshield with the butt of the knife. My friend held the perp until the cops arrived. I've always thought that since he chose to inject himself into the situation, drew his gun but didn't have cause to shoot that he was technically "brandishing". Since he was friends with many of the cops and city officials he was hailed (and honored) as a hero. But the scenario seems to be a sketchy one.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 25, 2022 15:46:34 GMT -5
It's a tough call, but I'd be fine putting the onus on the sellers....at least for a 20 minute gun safety and here's how this specific gun works. Did the guy who sold you your last SUV give you a lesson on how to drive it without causing mayhem? More people are killed by cars than guns. Did the guy at Lowes teach you how to use the chainsaw you just bought? You could easily kill or maim yourself or your next door neighbor if you operate it negligently. As gun owners we need to stop playing into the traps laid by those who want to take our guns. Gun dealers already work on very low margins -- they simply can't absorb the cost and liability for assuming the responsibility for the failures of our society. If something bad happens with a gun the onus is on the person who pulled the trigger. Of course there could be rare exceptions, but the person who sold the firearm is at the bottom of the list. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the gun dealer would in any way be liable for the consequences of someone misusing a gun or using it for nefarious purposes. I think the only burden slacker seeks to put on them is a short training session added into the sales process. He's not suggesting any liability on their part, more so a responsibility foe education. That said, while a gun store guy likely has experience and training in the handling and usage of guns, I am not sure I trust every gun store owner to be a sufficient "teacher" to those purchasing a gun anyway. If you were going to do that, you'd have to then make sure that all of the gun sore clerks had some level of registration/certification that they could teach the 20 minute course. More likely than not, they'd just say they did it and skip it altogether.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 25, 2022 16:46:42 GMT -5
It's a tough call, but I'd be fine putting the onus on the sellers....at least for a 20 minute gun safety and here's how this specific gun works. Did the guy who sold you your last SUV give you a lesson on how to drive it without causing mayhem? More people are killed by cars than guns. Did the guy at Lowes teach you how to use the chainsaw you just bought? You could easily kill or maim yourself or your next door neighbor if you operate it negligently. As gun owners we need to stop playing into the traps laid by those who want to take our guns. Gun dealers already work on very low margins -- they simply can't absorb the cost and liability for assuming the responsibility for the failures of our society. If something bad happens with a gun the onus is on the person who pulled the trigger. Of course there could be rare exceptions, but the person who sold the firearm is at the bottom of the list. I was required to take driver's Ed and or a proficiency test to drive a car. Further, every vehicle I've purchased in the last 15 years has come with a comprehensive explanation on all is controls and features. I can't accidentally kill someone a quarter mile away with a chainsaw. I don't want seller's to have liability... Just 15-20 minutes of time. A seller has to have an FFL... One would hope they have a clue.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 25, 2022 16:59:28 GMT -5
Did the guy who sold you your last SUV give you a lesson on how to drive it without causing mayhem? More people are killed by cars than guns. Did the guy at Lowes teach you how to use the chainsaw you just bought? You could easily kill or maim yourself or your next door neighbor if you operate it negligently. As gun owners we need to stop playing into the traps laid by those who want to take our guns. Gun dealers already work on very low margins -- they simply can't absorb the cost and liability for assuming the responsibility for the failures of our society. If something bad happens with a gun the onus is on the person who pulled the trigger. Of course there could be rare exceptions, but the person who sold the firearm is at the bottom of the list. I was required to take driver's Ed and or a proficiency test to drive a car. Further, every vehicle I've purchased in the last 15 years has come with a comprehensive explanation on all is controls and features. I can't accidentally kill someone a quarter mile away with a chainsaw. I don't want seller's to have liability... Just 15-20 minutes of time. A seller has to have an FFL... One would hope they have a clue. Good points. Regarding the driver’s license, one already needs to have that to buy and register a car, so the training is already evident. My concern regarding the gun dealers is there may be a difference between having a clue and being able to instruct someone. I have a lot of knowledge about anatomy and physiology, but I definitely couldn’t teach it to medical students.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 25, 2022 17:31:41 GMT -5
I was required to take driver's Ed and or a proficiency test to drive a car. Further, every vehicle I've purchased in the last 15 years has come with a comprehensive explanation on all is controls and features. I can't accidentally kill someone a quarter mile away with a chainsaw. I don't want seller's to have liability... Just 15-20 minutes of time. A seller has to have an FFL... One would hope they have a clue. Good points. Regarding the driver’s license, one already needs to have that to buy and register a car, so the training is already evident. My concern regarding the gun dealers is there may be a difference between having a clue and being able to instruct someone. I have a lot of knowledge about anatomy and physiology, but I definitely couldn’t teach it to medical students. There's a massive difference between him safety and teaching anatomy to need students.
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Post by modbus on Mar 25, 2022 17:43:58 GMT -5
Here in Ohio, you can now legally carry a loaded, concealed handgun in your vehicle, but all the complex and confusing restrictions on carrying a shotgun or rifle in said vehicle remain.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 25, 2022 18:02:00 GMT -5
Good points. Regarding the driver’s license, one already needs to have that to buy and register a car, so the training is already evident. My concern regarding the gun dealers is there may be a difference between having a clue and being able to instruct someone. I have a lot of knowledge about anatomy and physiology, but I definitely couldn’t teach it to medical students. There's a massive difference between him safety and teaching anatomy to need students. Probably an exaggerated example.
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Post by K4 on Mar 25, 2022 19:36:17 GMT -5
The car argument does not hold water. Cars are not mentioned in the Constitution.
I would hope people will get some basic training on firearms when or before they buy one. Requiring it goes off on a legal journey due to the 2A not saying you need training.
I'd still rather have law abiding Joe, with no training, carrying a firearm than the local gang bangers
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 25, 2022 19:55:28 GMT -5
The car argument does not hold water. Cars are not mentioned in the Constitution. I would hope people will get some basic training on firearms when or before they buy one. Requiring it goes off on a legal journey due to the 2A not saying you need training. I'd still rather have law abiding Joe, with no training, carrying a firearm than the local gang bangers It’s not a Constitutional argument, but I get what you’re saying. Regarding the last part, we both know none of these rules and/or the Constitution have nothing to do with whether “gang bangers” have guns.
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Post by K4 on Mar 25, 2022 20:04:35 GMT -5
Regarding the last part, we both know none of these rules and/or the Constitution have nothing to do with whether “gang bangers” have guns. The fact criminals have and carry firearms is the basic argument for allowing law abiding people to carry. KY went Constitutional carry and I kept my permit, it allows me to travel and still carry. Also in KY the permit covers any deadly weapon.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 25, 2022 20:05:55 GMT -5
I thought the basic argument was the Constitution says you have the right to it…
I mean to be honest, do you come into contact with a lot of gang bangers? I certainly don’t.
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Post by K4 on Mar 25, 2022 20:30:59 GMT -5
That is the argument that works. Bad guys have them, let the good guys fight back. Soccer moms understand this concept.
Yes the 2A says we can and that is the basic argument.
It is unfortunate the SC lets the States decide this one right.
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Post by K4 on Mar 25, 2022 20:34:44 GMT -5
I mean to be honest, do you come into contact with a lot of gang bangers? Unfortunately there are many here that have neck and face tattoos of MS and 13 ect.. I'm considering moving.
10 years ago this was all farmland.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 25, 2022 21:09:53 GMT -5
I mean to be honest, do you come into contact with a lot of gang bangers? Unfortunately there are many here that have neck and face tattoos of MS and 13 ect.. I'm considering moving.
10 years ago this was all farmland.
Sounds like it might be time.
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Post by LTB on Mar 25, 2022 22:46:47 GMT -5
I have had my License to Carry permit since December 2019. I figured when people around the country started talking about "Constitutional Carry" (Sorry Heavy Duty) Texas would be one of the first but didn't happen until last September when we became the 21st state. I plan on keeping my permit but now I won't have to pay for it since Texas Passed the Carry law. I think people need to read the laws and become proficient at shooting a gun if they are going to carry one around since Const Carry came out. Even though Texas has the "Castle doctrine" you would be surprised at how easy it is to be sued or thrown in Jail (at least in Texas). I think some rules are rather stupid and make no sense for protecting ones self or property. Things were more straight forward before the law became into effect. Now according to U.S. Lawshield there are some places one might get into trouble more if you have a license that not having a license might be a slap on the rist.
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Post by LTB on Mar 25, 2022 22:50:20 GMT -5
^ Agreed, a well organized militia isn’t really relevant to 2021. No but it might become that way sometime in the future...If we were ever attacked like a certain country recently
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Tequila Rob
Wholenote
Posts: 688
Formerly Known As: Guitar Fool
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Post by Tequila Rob on Mar 26, 2022 8:28:26 GMT -5
I took a concealed carry class. I've had a permit for 6 years but have never carried. I'm not willing to accept the responsibility of carrying. I can imagine too many situations where it would be unclear if I was in mortal danger or not until it's too late. Yeah.... I feel pretty much the same way.....the bad stuff in my town happens in the same part of town.....during the day yer pretty safe......but not at night.... sooooo..i just avoid it at night..;-0
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Post by K4 on Mar 26, 2022 8:28:31 GMT -5
LTB, I've lived in several States, one of which was Tx, it is not the free State it is made out to be.
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Post by rickyguitar on Mar 26, 2022 8:56:45 GMT -5
The only time I have open carried has been on my property. I personally do not care to advertise. That's just me. But I gotta say when I see some guy in Lowes with a carbine on his back I am not impressed.
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BigBadJohn
Wholenote
I Lurk, therefore I am.
Posts: 222
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Post by BigBadJohn on Mar 26, 2022 12:23:22 GMT -5
From a safety standpoint its not too hard.
The four primary rules are:
1. Treat every gun as if it's loaded. 2. Only point a gun at something you intend to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire. 4. Know what your target is and what's beyond it.
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Post by NoSoapRadio on Mar 26, 2022 16:28:17 GMT -5
I was required to take driver's Ed and or a proficiency test to drive a car. Further, every vehicle I've purchased in the last 15 years has come with a comprehensive explanation on all is controls and features. And yet more people die from car accidents than guns. And every new gun sold in the US also comes with a comprehensive manual that covers operation and safety. Guns are pretty easy to operate effectively and safely. I can't accidentally kill someone a quarter mile away with a chainsaw. Really? That's an argument? How often in this country does someone accidentally get killed by gunshot from a quarter mile away? My guess is almost never. Feel free to provide some stats.
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