|
Post by modbus on Mar 28, 2022 17:41:58 GMT -5
A general purpose course with no goal other than how to handle a firearm safely and legally would be right up my alley. That pretty much describes a hunter safety course. There is no hunting involved. Just how to safely handle a firearm. Do they tell you anything about the legal aspects of gun owner ownership, like how to legally transport in a vehicle, etc? Some of the gun laws on the books can be pretty confusing.
|
|
|
Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 28, 2022 17:43:37 GMT -5
One might offer a hammer as a good example.
Especially considering hammers are used in a considerable number of murders each year. 😜
|
|
|
Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 28, 2022 17:47:55 GMT -5
There are laws in Boulder City NV that require complete disassembly of any firearm being transported.
Pretty crazy, but I think it came about back when Hoover Dam was under construction.
The law has not been enforced in decades.
|
|
|
Post by K4 on Mar 28, 2022 18:15:31 GMT -5
Do they tell you anything about the legal aspects of gun owner ownership, like how to legally transport in a vehicle, etc? Some of the gun laws on the books can be pretty confusing. That was a long time ago. I do remembering it being taught that the firearm had to be cased and unloaded. They also went into a bit of what to do if you shot someone on accident or if you were shot. It was basic firearm safety. If you want a better understanding of your States firearm laws it would be best to take a concealed carry course.
|
|
|
Post by rok-a-bill-e on Mar 28, 2022 18:36:15 GMT -5
The Four Rules could be taught in school, along with a basic explanation of related criminal and civic liability, even if hands-on firearms training could not be taught. And anyone buying any firearm should receive a handout explaining both safe handling procedures AND criminal and civic liability, and have to sign for receiving that. Beyond that, it's up to the individual. Any mandated requirements can and will be used to deny ownership. Responsibility and good judgement cannot be mandated.
|
|
|
Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 28, 2022 19:18:34 GMT -5
Well then, perhaps pro 2nd organizations should offer free or low cost gun training classes. It might be a better use of their membership dues money than lobbying. My NRA pistol training was dirt cheap...like $15. It's not an availability thing, it's a responsibility thing. My dad knew the tremendous responsibility that comes with firearms ownership and operation and passed that along to my siblings and me. Parents are not always that responsible and may not even know much about firearms. The unfortunate reality is that people are not uniformly responsible. Forcing training does indeed come with the risk of use as a means to infringe which concerns me as much as the op. I suspect that there's no perfect answer. Don't require training and you get ignorant (not stupid...uninformed) people doing stupid things and people getting hurt or killed. Require training and overzealous anti-gun good will leverage it to impose excessive restrictions. I have a tendency to fall in the category of people who feel you can overcome the rules abusers with well written rules and backing of the 2nd amendment. A good example of this is my home county where the prevailing mentality was anti-gun and getting a carry permit was virtually impossible. The counties around us were much more open. The state added a "shall issue" law such that the sheriff had to issue the permit unless there was a good reason not to (as opposed to having to prove you needed one).
|
|
|
Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 28, 2022 21:31:34 GMT -5
Big picture … it’s pretty tough to get someone to do much intensive training about anything unless they are personally motivated to do it.
Sadly, lots of folks out there simply don’t know what they don’t know regarding the practical use of firearms.
When it comes to firearms, unlike almost every other thing we can possess, the Constitution guaranties virtually unfettered rights to anyone choosing to possess it.
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 28, 2022 21:34:18 GMT -5
^ It’s a fair point. I have zero interest in firearms or the training. If the training were available for free in my next door neighbor’s house, I still wouldn’t take it because I lack the motivation.
|
|
|
Post by K4 on Mar 28, 2022 23:02:00 GMT -5
The reality is 24 States allow non felons the ability to carry concealed without permit or training. If the training issue were real (lack of) the press would be all over it. The only time I hear of an innocent getting shot is when gangs square off or drive byes. I don't see the need for it. I'd say 90% + people who would carry are people who have had some kind of training, either sought out or by a parent.
The 10% or so who won't are criminals.
Any way my observations.
|
|
|
Post by reverendrob on Mar 29, 2022 2:02:38 GMT -5
Objectively, it's like voting rights issues.
The gov't has never played straight on this one, and requiring something before exercising is a mission in insanity.
I still can't get an ID here locally (running off my Idaho ID still) and I've been here two years because of "COVID."
I can get a driver's license if I could still drive, mind you.
No ID.
I've voted multiple times, declared residency, the whole nine yards.
But I can't purchase a pistol lawfully because of that or get a concealed weapons permit because...you guessed it - no state ID.
Such follies are NORMAL.
|
|
|
Post by gato on Mar 29, 2022 5:00:11 GMT -5
Could make it elective and name it something like "firearms safety" The class wouldn't take more than an hour and would not need a real firearm. Most rural kids get taught by their Fathers or Grand Fathers. When I was a kid in Wi I needed a hunter safety certificate to get a hunting license. I attended some of my junior/senior high school on Mercer Island, in Washington. (Emphasis on "island"). Boating safety was required. Didn't matter if your family owned a boat. Didn't matter if you never went near the water. Didn't matter whether you wanted to take the course or not. You took and passed the course or you didn't graduate.
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 29, 2022 6:30:08 GMT -5
Could make it elective and name it something like "firearms safety" The class wouldn't take more than an hour and would not need a real firearm. Most rural kids get taught by their Fathers or Grand Fathers. When I was a kid in Wi I needed a hunter safety certificate to get a hunting license. I attended some of my junior/senior high school on Mercer Island, in Washington. (Emphasis on "island"). Boating safety was required. Didn't matter if your family owned a boat. Didn't matter if you never went near the water. Didn't matter whether you wanted to take the course or not. You took and passed the course or you didn't graduate. I don’t imagine there is a percentage of the population fundamentally opposed to boats, and I believe boats have no place in our school systems.
|
|
|
Post by oldnjplayer on Mar 29, 2022 6:36:09 GMT -5
I do not own a gun but support 2A. Training is certainly important. Understanding the true dangers of mishandling guns is important. Unfortunately I think those who commit crimes with guns and are involved in street/gang shootings are unlikely to take any courses, free or not. In NJ its almost impossible for law abiding citizens to get C and C permits, but it doesn't stop gangs and criminals from getting any weapons they want. Just look at what is recovered when a city does a gun buy back event. Still I would sign up for a free gun safety/use class, after COVID of course.
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 29, 2022 8:08:57 GMT -5
Let's keep the thread on target, it was venturing into a "hot button"/political area.
|
|
|
Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 29, 2022 9:16:56 GMT -5
I was going to make a point about training as it pertains to anti-theft protection. Then it occurred to me that even in that discussion folks are at odds.
Just an observation about these kinds of discussions, then I'll move on. In the world of online debate it seems people very frequently like to use analogies to demonstrate their point. Those analogies almost always resonate with like minded people and never convince someone of an opposing view point. More often than not they become (intentionally or not) weaponized. I'm not saying that has happened or will happen here, but just an observation. For people who don't subscribe to any form of firearms enthusiasm, just look at some of the discussions among "like-minded" people at those boards. Those can and often do get brutal once folks get past the mutual admiration stage. It's a difficult topic and probably one that is best served with cited statistical information as often as possible.
|
|
|
Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 29, 2022 9:37:32 GMT -5
From my history of firearms training at ... Front Sight.
The Mission statement at Front Sight is: "Positively change the image of gun ownership in our lifetime".
About the only way you can do that is to get the Anti-gun people out on a range learning, of course safety aspects and more importantly the practical use of firearms.
Queenie was a sterling example of this. When I met her she was paranoid about firearms. If one was even in her sight she would insist that it be gone.
I've told the story before so the short version is this:
I pretty much "tricked her" into going to Front Sight. It was a free course and even I had never been there before. Front Sight provided the firearm, the ammo and even lunch. It was a one day course learning to use one specific firearm. We got onto the range and by now Queenie was all clear about what we would be doing. There were a few other women on the range and one of them was actually crying! I think that women gave Queenie courage. Courage if for no other reason to show she was not a wuss.
We got through the one day course and Queenie did quite well considering her state of mind coming in that morning.
As we were leaving she said to me, "maybe we could do a hand gun course".
Here's the deal, the first firearm Queenie ever walked up to, touched, handled, manipulated, loaded and shot ...
was a fully automatic UZI submachine gun. That is the firearm used in this free one day course.
Queenie now owns a S&W 640, a Glock 19 and has a concealed firearm permit.
|
|
|
Post by modbus on Mar 29, 2022 9:43:59 GMT -5
The reality is 24 States allow non felons the ability to carry concealed without permit or training. If the training issue were real (lack of) the press would be all over it. The only time I hear of an innocent getting shot is when gangs square off or drive byes. I don't see the need for it. I'd say 90% + people who would carry are people who have had some kind of training, either sought out or by a parent.
The 10% or so who won't are criminals.
Any way my observations.
I think some positive exposure to gun safety and handling might help change the perspective of people who are damned opposed to guns and gun ownership, but know nothing about them. If someone has no interest, than that's cool. But if it got a few people to have a more open mind, than that would be good, right?
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 29, 2022 10:01:00 GMT -5
The reality is 24 States allow non felons the ability to carry concealed without permit or training. If the training issue were real (lack of) the press would be all over it. The only time I hear of an innocent getting shot is when gangs square off or drive byes. I don't see the need for it. I'd say 90% + people who would carry are people who have had some kind of training, either sought out or by a parent.
The 10% or so who won't are criminals.
Any way my observations.
I think some positive exposure to gun safety and handling might help change the perspective of people who are damned opposed to guns and gun ownership, but know nothing about them. If someone has no interest, than that's cool. But if it got a few people to have a more open mind, than that would be good, right?
I think that's the argument in favor of free gun safety courses. Those who have any interest at all might decide to attend and that increases overall awareness. Others will not want to attend, whether its free, local, or what have you. Those people have no interest and I would suggest as I noted above, compelling people to attend when they have no interest doesn't really make any sense. If I ever want to own a gun, you can be certain I will learn it inside out and backwards. Until I make that decision, I really don't care at all.
|
|
|
Post by Leftee on Mar 29, 2022 11:06:00 GMT -5
I think some positive exposure to gun safety and handling might help change the perspective of people who are damned opposed to guns and gun ownership, but know nothing about them. If someone has no interest, than that's cool. But if it got a few people to have a more open mind, than that would be good, right?
I think that's the argument in favor of free gun safety courses. Those who have any interest at all might decide to attend and that increases overall awareness. Others will not want to attend, whether its free, local, or what have you. Those people have no interest and I would suggest as I noted above, compelling people to attend when they have no interest doesn't really make any sense. If I ever want to own a gun, you can be certain I will learn it inside out and backwards. Until I make that decision, I really don't care at all. But if a guy were… say… SPIDER-MAN… why would he need a gun? Hypothetically speaking, of course.
|
|
|
Post by Taildragger on Mar 29, 2022 11:24:37 GMT -5
I think that's the argument in favor of free gun safety courses. Those who have any interest at all might decide to attend and that increases overall awareness. Others will not want to attend, whether its free, local, or what have you. Those people have no interest and I would suggest as I noted above, compelling people to attend when they have no interest doesn't really make any sense. If I ever want to own a gun, you can be certain I will learn it inside out and backwards. Until I make that decision, I really don't care at all. But if a guy were… say… SPIDER-MAN… why would he need a gun? Hypothetically speaking, of course. If said hypothetical guy was to, let's say, have ossicones...wouldn't he be at constant risk of tearing hypothetical runs in his Spandex hood with said hypothetical ossicones?
|
|
|
Post by rickyguitar on Mar 29, 2022 11:31:39 GMT -5
The only time I hear of an innocent getting shot is when gangs square off or drive byes.
I have to disagree. We have all heard of a family member being shot coming in the house late. Or unexpectedly. I read an article about a mom who had a pistol in her purse and her young child got it and killed her. Shot happens. Some owners, sorry to say are not very responsible and that needs to be a part of training.
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 29, 2022 11:32:12 GMT -5
I am less and less confident that my secret is safe. Hypothetically.
|
|
|
Post by LeftyMeister on Mar 29, 2022 11:37:31 GMT -5
Some owners, sorry to say are not very responsible and that needs to be a part of training. How about we start at the source by requiring parental training before one produces offspring? Kidding of course... sorta.
|
|
tomcaster
Halfnote
Posts: 91
Formerly Known As: strat-hacker
|
Post by tomcaster on Mar 29, 2022 12:18:46 GMT -5
With hot button issues like this one, there tends to be a vocal minority on both sides that get the most attention. Both of those types tend to exaggerate things and that doesn't help your credibility. The overwhelming use of guns tends to be safe and legal, but the over the top mass shootings we get distort that image for many Americans. Especially those that do not have guns as part of their life at all. I think those events drive that side more than anything else. But the reality is that even with those shooting's there is no call from the people to change anything significantly. That's very telling to me. It also makes me think any talk about significant removal of gun rights is nonsense. There are more guns then people in this country and the vast majority are unregistered. That and there is way more money and influence in keeping guns available.
|
|
|
Post by Larry Madsen on Mar 29, 2022 12:26:39 GMT -5
Hard to say this and know it won't be viewed as Political.
Individual freedom at its best requires great individual responsibility.
We humans are imperfect and widely scattered in our priorities and values.
Those two realities generate a World that includes degrees of danger.
There is really very little that can be done about that ... in a Free Society.
Or so it seems to me.
|
|
|
Post by LTB on Mar 29, 2022 12:47:56 GMT -5
My brother at age 12 (1963) was given a 12 guage full choke goose gun (shotgun) to go hunting with two adults at Lake Texoma. He was very responsible and good with it whereas I was 13 and didn't even know how to shoot one until I was 15. He passed away in 1970 and I got his shotgun after Dad passed away last May. It was clean except for some dust inside the barrel because the case had deteriorated. I cleaned and bought a nice case for it. However, concerning shooting rules in schools I believe Mike is right. While some parents would approve, even if it was most parents agreed with it there would be a few, even if only 2 or 3 disapproved the "The wheel that squealed the loudest got the most oil"
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 29, 2022 13:14:29 GMT -5
My brother at age 12 (1963) was given a 12 guage full choke goose gun (shotgun) to go hunting with two adults at Lake Texoma. He was very responsible and good with it whereas I was 13 and didn't even know how to shoot one until I was 15. He passed away in 1970 and I got his shotgun after Dad passed away last May. It was clean except for some dust inside the barrel because the case had deteriorated. I cleaned and bought a nice case for it. However, concerning shooting rules in schools I believe Mike is right. While some parents would approve, even if it was most parents agreed with it there would be a few, even if only 2 or 3 disapproved the "The wheel that squealed the loudest got the most oil" I would add to it that the response would also differ based on region. Here in NYC, where gun ownership is relatively low, people would think you were absolutely nuts to suggest firearms training in schools. We would definitely not have 2-3 people disapproving here lol. I would assume that in places where the parents were formerly 12-15 year olds who received shotguns, the response would be quite different indeed.
|
|
|
Post by NoSoapRadio on Mar 29, 2022 13:25:08 GMT -5
That would never go over well, especially amongst those who don’t want the training (for their children) because they don’t want to have guns at all. And while I’m sure some of the training could be accomplished otherwise, I imagine quite a resistance to guns being brought into schools for this type of training. Requiring a training course in schools would be mandating training for a right that some people do not wish to exercise, and some others would like to restrict or eliminate. And, in at least some instances, doing it through the State run school systems. It would never work. Considering that Federal law prohibits anyone but adults with a concealed carry permit to possess a firearm on public school property (K-12) and most states don't even allow that without special permission -- I agree that this approach is not an option. Even if it were an option, the emotional damage resulting from the few high profile school shootings is substantial and probably not worth taking on in the near future. Others will not want to attend, whether its free, local, or what have you. Those people have no interest and I would suggest as I noted above, compelling people to attend when they have no interest doesn't really make any sense. If I ever want to own a gun, you can be certain I will learn it inside out and backwards. Until I make that decision, I really don't care at all. I have no interest in dragging anyone against their will to my side of the discussion. On the other hand, I am happy to discuss any aspect of gun ownership and what goes along with it with anyone who has no experience and maybe wants to see what it's all about -- including taking them with me to the range to give them some first hand face time with a hand gun. I've taken seven or eight people, mostly friends of my wife, who have never even held a gun, to the range to do some shooting. Every single one enjoyed the experience and two have gone on the get their LTC and buy a gun of their own. That is very satisfying.
|
|
|
Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 29, 2022 13:32:26 GMT -5
I'm sure I would enjoy going. It's not like I haven't shot before, its just limited to old .22 rifles and one time a .30-06 at Boy Scout camp. Only the older, larger kids were allowed to use the .30-06, and I was only able to my last year (probably age 14). I am sure trying a handgun would be fun too. I don't expect it would lead me to wanting to own one. It would definitely not lead to me wanting to carry one.
|
|
|
Post by NoSoapRadio on Mar 29, 2022 14:06:29 GMT -5
I'm sure I would enjoy going. I've extended an invitation in the past -- it still stands. I suggest handguns because my club has an indoor range which is easier for me to watch whoever I bring -- and it's more comfortable for a new shooter than being on the outdoor range next to a guy shooting and AR10. We aren't allowed to have suppressors in MA -- even with ear pro, an AR or AK is damn loud.
|
|