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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 30, 2022 15:45:21 GMT -5
I find this an interesting statement. It sounds as if you were glad you didn't have to respond, even though responding may have saved a life. Is that what you meant? It's a tough question and one that has too many variables to answer honestly. I was walking with my wife and dog, I don't even know if I was armed at the time. Had I been I would likely have been caught completely off guard as this would have been the last place I could imagine something so horrific happening. The likelihood is I would've not been able to react in time, leaving me with a decision that could then put me, my wife (and dog!) in mortal danger. If I could've intervened then yes, of course I would try to save a life. But there is a difference between self defense and law enforcement and the consequences for a civilian using deadly force in such a scenario get way more complicated. As it turns out the shooter went back inside and offed himself, so he probably would have had no qualms in taking out a few extra people in that moment.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 30, 2022 15:50:04 GMT -5
^Another aspect is that I would have not known how close law enforcement was to responding. Cops showing up with a dead person on the lawn and me engaged with the shooter could end up, as happens too often, with me getting mistaken as the assailant.
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Post by Mfitz804 on Mar 30, 2022 16:21:16 GMT -5
I can imagine it being possibly one of the hardest calls anyone would have to make. I’ve never been faced with that situation, not with gun involved. Other implements, yes. Did I dash into the fray like an idiot, yes. Did I stay relatively unscathed? Also yes.
I think at my current age and my current abilities, as well as with my adult sensibilities, I would probably not get involved. Younger me would likely have been shot.
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Post by reverendrob on Mar 30, 2022 16:44:08 GMT -5
I don't get involved any more after going through the wringer for protecting a woman and a child who were literally under attack for an hour+ with no police response nd fleeing for their lives.
Older cop told me that ten years before I'd have gotten a medal and apologized as he took down the story.
I'm glad I haven't had to deal with similar since - what I've committed to do versus what i'm wired to do are two different things.
Getting involved in a domestic is stupid and it sucks, but I'm not wired to watch a child under mortal threat and NOT respond.
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Post by Auf Kiltre on Mar 30, 2022 16:47:42 GMT -5
I can imagine it being possibly one of the hardest calls anyone would have to make. By all accounts it happened fast, probably within seconds. I honestly think the most proficient in assessing and acting would've not likely stopped it. Poor old guy next door witnessed it and had a heart attack (non fatal). How I chose to respond then would be dependent on how the shooter reacted to our presence. In later walk bys I looked around for cover we could've retreated to, scarce. A firearm is no guarantee of self defense. Anyone thinking so is deluding themself. But as I have always said, if I'm at a grocery store and an active shooting breaks out on aisle 9, my first thought (especially if I'm with my wife), is retreat. There's a fine line between heroism and folly. If retreat isn't possible a firearm is a better option than a can of corned beef.
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Post by Leftee on Mar 30, 2022 17:00:23 GMT -5
A firearm and training gives you a shot at self-defense.
See what I did there?
But seriously, I’ve never come to the conclusion that I need to carry. But if I do… some substantial training (beyond the required) would happen.
Cuz I’m responsible. And you can’t train that.
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Post by reverendrob on Mar 30, 2022 20:12:32 GMT -5
^and that's the thing.
You can choose (to carry, to not carry, your level of preparedness, et cetera.)
Choice is verboten in this day and age though.
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Post by slacker 🐨 on Mar 30, 2022 20:13:51 GMT -5
I had a situation a little similar to Auf Kiltre (not a murder though). I pulled into the parking lot of my grocery store with my wife and 20 yay old daughter. There was a guy in the next lane over with a woman in a headlock pounding in her face.
I simply couldn't ignore that, so I hollared at him to stop. He did, but then came at me. Lucky for me, he got distracted by the woman before he got to me. I hollared a second time when he resumed the beating. About that time, store employees came out and he ran.
Had I been carrying (I had a permit at the time, but had never carried) and he'd gotten to me, I would have been in a bind. I'm small and not an experienced fighter. Getting punched or kicked isn't the end of the world, getting disarmed and possibly shot with my own gun is.
If I'm carrying, I'd feel like I'd have to use my gun in that situation just to prevent the other guy from getting my gun.
That's the main reason I don't carry.
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Post by WireDog on Mar 31, 2022 19:36:45 GMT -5
As per usual, my comment will have no bearing on everyday life as it happened in Iraq. It is an interesting example of a person using a pistol decisively to neutralize a threat. I was not the shooter. It so happens that this guy saved many many lives, including mine.
It happened at the Baghdad Hotel, leased by the company I worked for, in around 2005 or 06. This was a time when Insurgents were offing Westerners and soldiers with Improvised Explosives of several kinds. The UN HQ just up the street had fallen a year or two before. One of our sharp-eyed South African security managers, in charge of several guards, saw the fuel truck that came every so often to refuel the hotel's big generator. Baghdad power was sporadic, so we ran on emergency generator power a good bit of the time.
The fuel truck showed its papers at the entry point, got checked out by K-9s, and pulled into the compound. Everything was routine to that point. However, our guy (we called him Zaay, I think), watched the driver pull up to the wall on wrong side of the hotel, hop out, and walk briskly towards the far side, as far away as he could get. Zaay, a former SA cop, trailed behind him. Then the driver got behind the far corner of the building and pulled out a garage door opener and hit the button on it. Nothing happened- he was too far away. Zaay was not far from him and pulled out his Berretta and immediately shot him dead. Then he calmly removed the batteries and got the US ARMY EOD over. The truck was full of diesel and artillery shells, rigged to blow.
I was in the hotel and wouldn't have made it.
As an Army Vet, and also with a lot of American vets and cops on the contract, we were all amazed that Zaay didn't radio it in, didn't ask permission, nada. It was remarkable. Rules of engagement were different at that time.
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Post by K4 on Mar 31, 2022 19:58:11 GMT -5
Rules of engagement were different at that time. Yea the ROE's my Son operated under in the 2000's made me shake my head, compared to 1980's.
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Post by LTB on Mar 31, 2022 20:07:52 GMT -5
My brother at age 12 (1963) was given a 12 guage full choke goose gun (shotgun) to go hunting with two adults at Lake Texoma. He was very responsible and good with it whereas I was 13 and didn't even know how to shoot one until I was 15. He passed away in 1970 and I got his shotgun after Dad passed away last May. It was clean except for some dust inside the barrel because the case had deteriorated. I cleaned and bought a nice case for it. However, concerning shooting rules in schools I believe Mike is right. While some parents would approve, even if it was most parents agreed with it there would be a few, even if only 2 or 3 disapproved the "The wheel that squealed the loudest got the most oil" I would add to it that the response would also differ based on region. Here in NYC, where gun ownership is relatively low, people would think you were absolutely nuts to suggest firearms training in schools. We would definitely not have 2-3 people disapproving here lol. I would assume that in places where the parents were formerly 12-15 year olds who received shotguns, the response would be quite different indeed. My brother was 15 months younger than me but way ahead of me in maturity. I couldn't do what he did at age 12 even at age 16. I look at it now and think, no way I would let my child shoot by themselves prior to age 17 or 18. There are people who grow up in the country that learn to do things much earlier than us who grew up in the city. My daughter never shot a gun until she started dating her now husband when she was 28 years old. He on the other hand grew up in the country and learned to shoot at an early age with his dad.
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Saturn
Halfnote
Posts: 82
Formerly Known As: Saturn
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Post by Saturn on Apr 1, 2022 10:59:11 GMT -5
I attended some of my junior/senior high school on Mercer Island, in Washington. (Emphasis on "island"). Boating safety was required. Didn't matter if your family owned a boat. Didn't matter if you never went near the water. Didn't matter whether you wanted to take the course or not. You took and passed the course or you didn't graduate. I don’t imagine there is a percentage of the population fundamentally opposed to boats, and I believe boats have no place in our school systems. Our high school had seamanship training. Most of us trained with guns at some point, but not mandated. In a country replete with firearms, it would make sense to at least teach the basics of handling them safely, if not ‘using’ them. Could save some lives.
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Post by rickyguitar on Apr 1, 2022 13:32:00 GMT -5
A constitution and bill of rights class should include firearms training and after high school everyone one do 2 years military service then free college. There, all fixed up.
April fools.
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Post by Leftee on Apr 1, 2022 13:50:32 GMT -5
A constitution and bill of rights class should include firearms training and after high school everyone one do 2 years military service then free college. There, all fixed up. April fools. You forgot the free cheese.
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